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A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed
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Carles Curto




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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 05:45    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

It's well known that some “artisanal” practices are usual among Chinese dealers. In the case of cinnabar crystals, a lot of them are neatly broken when the pieces are trimmed. Most of the broken crystals are perfectly adjusted to its initial place so, most of the dealers carefully glue them.
Some of the glued crystals can be “discovered” observing them trough a simple 10x lens, but in some other cases they are not so easy observed. An immersion on acetone is definitive but... “too late, cock, too late”.
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 09:33    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

Well, John, if you're considering starting a collection of faked specimens, those irradiated Pakistani topazes still seem to be readily available. I saw several dealers with them at the Inn Suites, and I'm sure there were more that got held up by customs or immigration and didn't make the show.
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Jason




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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 10:28    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

you got that right John..good point..some of those carvings that were done with stone age tools are amazing..any fake is childs play compared to that...lololol
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 13:19    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

Jesse:

I am not actually collecting fakes, but since I have some really good photos of the copper fakes and have posted some comments about them, I figured I should have at least one for show and tell. I am not familiar with the topazes you mentioned.

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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 14:12    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

John, I'm sure you're familiar with the sherry-colored topazes from the pegmatites of Northern Pakistan. Next time you're at a show check the Pakistani and Afghani dealers stock for ones that have a dark "burnt caramel" color. Any associated quartz will likely be a dark smokey color. I saw a number of these at Tucson.
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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 14:29    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

ohh..jesse...spot on buddy..I was putting disclaimers in my ebay ads about those topaz...i was selling natural colored pak. topaz and was getting beat down by those irridated crap..I knew two of the sellers who were selling them..1 on ebay..I know exactly the place they were sending them to get zapped in Lahore..made me mad..my nat. were selling like crap but those burnt fakes were selling like hotcakes..I always be putting is disclaimers calling out other dealers on ebay..did it with the tanzy guys and the stupid "patroke" green kunzites..had to put a public service announcement about those also..get emails all the time from folks happy i am doing it..not one mention in the ad that those greens will lose half the color in 6 months and all the color in a year..the sellers I know to...they are the ones sending the toipaz and kunzite to Lahore to get zaped..can't plead ignorance on that..was seeing dang 100 gram junk kunzite crystals..that were crappy opaque white that had been zapped to a bright green selling for $70-$80...mine were selling for a fraction..did you see anything saying these are irridated or artifically enhanced..heck no..to get 1 kilo of crap kunzites or topaz irridated in Lahore is $25..checked myself..saw dollars bills flying out the window..hell if those guys are making money hand over fist on junk maybe I need to too...but the difference is I am honest and let people know..honesty goes a long way in this biz...once you lose that..you are out
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 15:21    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

The trouble with a place like e-bay is that I'm not sure if very many of the buyers are sophisticated enough to know, or even care about the difference between natural and "enhanced" minerals. Perhaps that's why so many sellers seem to get away with it.

I have an Afghani friend here in California who has dealt in minerals and gem rough for many years, and is a pretty honest fellow. Last year he told me that someone from Hong Kong had approached him wanting to purchase a whole bunch of low quality kunzite he had sitting around as he couldn't sell it on the collectors market. He ask me why someone wanted all that stuff and was apparently willing to pay a good price. Not really knowing, I speculated that perhaps the buyer was going to have it irradiated and turn it into beads. That's exactly what happened, as it turned out! I feel sorry for people that buy that stuff as they're likely to end up with a bunch of ugly gray-white beads in about 6 months.
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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2010 16:10    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

A few years ago at the Tucson Show, some uniquely colored kunzites were purchased by a prominent American dealer. They still had "pocket mud" on them and looked very natural. The American dealer showed them around, very proudly, until it was pointed out the crystals had been irradiated. That was 4 or 5 days after the initial purchase had been made and when the dealer went back to the motel, the Pakistani dealer had already skipped town. Fortunately for the American dealer, the crystals were gem quality and were sold to a gem dealer, knowing full well they had been irradiated.

I learned a long time ago to never undestimate the abilities of the locals to fake specimens. After all, these folks have nothing but time and if they can spend a day gluing a crystal onto a piece of matrix and make an extra $5 (or more likely a lot more) then why not? They think anyone spending money on rocks is crazy anyway so let the buyer beware.

Let us not forget what people have learned over the years from the time honored tradition of artistically working, reworking and enhancing fossils.
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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Jan 19, 2012 09:17    Post subject: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

I must inform that after an accurate inspection in person by several expert collectors, this specimen happened to be repaired instead of forged, contrary to what I firmly believed. It seems very likely that the crystal got separated from the matrix during the saw operation and then glued on the right place without the vendor disclosing that fact. As said above, he was a Chinese dealer in the 2004 Munich show.

Many thanks to all the fellow forum members that spent their valuable time to post their opinions here.
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h.abbasi




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PostPosted: Jan 21, 2012 03:17    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

Hi all,
I think when we see a Chinese dealer , we must be cautious.
Meanwhile ,I want to advice you that the crystal from China maybe are dummy , Chinese are cheat , rather .
I saw a video that show how a Sinitic made Amethyst, last year.
I seeing some Chinese dealer every month, but I never buy any crystall frome Chinese dealer ...!

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Riccardo Modanesi




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PostPosted: Jan 21, 2012 06:14    Post subject: Re: A fake Chinese cinnabar disclosed  

Hi to everybody! Ok it's not the first time nor it will be the last time someone of us is cheated by a self-declared stone dealer. You should know I'm a gemologist and therefore I think we should take care of the difference between a synthesis, an imitation and an enhancement.
In 1994 at the Munich show I saw an Italian dealer selling spesartines from Val Codera, Lombardy, and I liked particularly a some 1.5 cm big red transparent crystal on a white pegmatite rock. The price that time was 30 DM, some 15 € nowadays Of course ita seemed to me a very good price for such a specimen! In the evening at the hotel I wanted to see what I purchased at the show; the transparent crystal was thoroughly full of fractures and the nice white pegmatite then turned into a bloody pink pegmatite! I understod I was cheated: the crystal was treated by a red oil in order to enhance the colour and to hide the fractures, and then it was glued again on its (maybe, non sure!) original rock.
I still have this crystal in my collection: I think a cheating is first of all a lesson for everybody who took it! And then a 30 DM cheating is not a tragedy!
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

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Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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