We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >

FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences


Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
18 Mar-08:12:52 Green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
18 Mar-06:47:13 Mineralogy & museums 10 - cardiff - 12th-13th august 2024 (Roy Starkey)
18 Mar-02:50:32 Re: collection from dany mabillard (Dany Mabillard)
17 Mar-01:57:58 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
15 Mar-14:27:47 Re: collection of philippe durand (Philippe Durand)
15 Mar-13:49:04 Re: collection of firmo espinar (Firmo Espinar)
15 Mar-09:18:42 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
15 Mar-03:45:43 The mizunaka collection - rhodochrosite (Am Mizunaka)
14 Mar-21:29:31 Re: monthly mineral chronicles, mineral guides and more... (Crocoite)
14 Mar-14:47:27 Re: collection of philippe durand (Jordi Fabre)
14 Mar-13:56:01 Re: collection of philippe durand (Philippe Durand)
14 Mar-11:24:43 Re: collection of philippe durand (Jordi Fabre)
14 Mar-08:55:22 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
14 Mar-08:44:47 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Mim Museum)
14 Mar-07:24:12 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
14 Mar-02:30:15 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
14 Mar-02:20:37 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Tobi)
13 Mar-23:40:08 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
13 Mar-14:22:58 Re: don lum collection (Don Lum)
13 Mar-14:02:43 Re: collection of philippe durand (Philippe Durand)
13 Mar-00:57:48 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
12 Mar-07:36:06 Re: can you recommend a lab to analyse specimens (Luiz Oliveira)
11 Mar-16:19:18 Re: collection of philippe durand (Riccardo Modanesi)
11 Mar-15:18:26 Re: collection of philippe durand (Philippe Durand)
11 Mar-15:13:07 Re: collection of philippe durand (Philippe Durand)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
111630


The time now is Mar 19, 2024 03:53

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
The information provided within this Forum about localities is only given to allow reference to them. Any visit to any of the localities requires you to obtain full permission and relevant information prior to your visit. FMF is strictly against any illicit activities related to collecting minerals.
Minerals sans life
  
  Index -> Minerals and Mineralogy
Like
10


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Tom Mazanec




Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Posts: 139
Location: Twinsburg, Ohio

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 06, 2017 12:05    Post subject: Minerals sans life  

Suppose the first proto-bacterium never formed. How would Earth's minerals differ? Would there be all the ~5,000 mineral species on the planet?
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter Lemkin




Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 398
Location: Prague

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 06, 2017 13:12    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Suppose the first proto-bacterium never formed. How would Earth's minerals differ? Would there be all the ~5,000 mineral species on the planet?


Short answer = no! I'd only lean toward unicellular life or proto-life not likely having 'formed' on Earth [though could have]; more likely it came on asteroids, meteorites, cosmic dust, etc. [panspermia]. Anyway, the biotic and geologic domains have long, long been in constant interaction. Without life and the effects of life there would be many fewer mineral species. I've never seen a figure for how many fewer, but I'm sure someone has calculated that, as I have several book entirely on the subject of the interaction between the geologic and biotic realms.
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Modreski
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 709
Location: Denver, Colorado


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 06, 2017 13:22    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Tom, this interesting question has actually been the subject of a whole series of papers, by Robert M. Hazen of the Geophysical Laboratory of the Carnegie Institution of Washington and then with follow-ups by others. In fact, I was quite surprised when I just checked on this, because his first paper in this topic was published a full 10 years ago (I never would have thought it had been that long ago!):

Hazen RM, Papineau D, Bleeker W, Downs RT, Ferry J, McCoy T, Sverjensky D, Yang H (2008) Mineral evolution. American Mineralogist 93:1693-1720 [pdf]

Much of what he has explored involves the fact that if it had not been for the generation of free oxygen into earth's atmosphere, hydrosphere, and crust by photosynthesizing organisms, most of the oxy-compounds that we know as minerals would not exist, and the total number of minerals would probably be more like one thousand than the 5000+ that we have now. You might like to look up & read some of Hazen's papers! Here are several more of these, from 2010,

Hazen RM (2010) The evolution of minerals. Scientific American 3:58-65
Hazen RM and Ferry JM (2010) Mineral evolution: Mineralogy in the fourth dimension. Elements 6(1):9-12 [pdf]
Hazen RM and Eldredge E (2010) Themes and variations in complex systems. Elements 6(1):43-46 [pdf]

And here is a page on his website that list all his publications on this theme:
https://hazen.carnegiescience.edu/publications/mineral-evolution

Cheers, Pete Modreski
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
3
   

Tom Mazanec




Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Posts: 139
Location: Twinsburg, Ohio

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 06, 2017 17:41    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Would this mean no limestone type caves on a lifeless Earth, the kind with stalactites and stalagmites?
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Pierre Joubert




Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 07, 2017 01:51    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Suppose the first proto-bacterium never formed. How would Earth's minerals differ? Would there be all the ~5,000 mineral species on the planet?


My answer is no, it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.

_________________
Pierre Joubert


'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. '
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

dontgogreen




Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 79


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 07, 2017 09:17    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Pierre Joubert wrote:
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Suppose the first proto-bacterium never formed. How would Earth's minerals differ? Would there be all the ~5,000 mineral species on the planet?


My answer is no, it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.


Pierre, I'm not sure I follow your line of thought. I agree that no, we would not see the great variety of mineral species today if not for the presence of a variety of life forms. This is discussed in Bob Hazen's papers. But what do you mean when you say "it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system..."? Are you suggesting that complex life did not evolve from simple organisms? Is this because you hold a creationist view, or do you believe complex life did not develop from simpler organisms? I do not intend to slight your view, whatever it may be, just to understand your thought process here.
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Pierre Joubert




Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 07, 2017 09:33    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

dontgogreen wrote:
Pierre Joubert wrote:
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Suppose the first proto-bacterium never formed. How would Earth's minerals differ? Would there be all the ~5,000 mineral species on the planet?


My answer is no, it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.


Pierre, I'm not sure I follow your line of thought. I agree that no, we would not see the great variety of mineral species today if not for the presence of a variety of life forms. This is discussed in Bob Hazen's papers. But what do you mean when you say "it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system..."? Are you suggesting that complex life did not evolve from simple organisms? Is this because you hold a creationist view, or do you believe complex life did not develop from simpler organisms? I do not intend to slight your view, whatever it may be, just to understand your thought process here.

Hi Dontgogreen. You are perfectly right in your assumption. May I ask whether you hold an Atheistic view, i.a.w. that the complexities and order of life on earth was the result of chance?

_________________
Pierre Joubert


'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. '
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

dontgogreen




Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 79


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 07, 2017 09:52    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Hi Pierre, thanks for clarifying. I respect your view completely, and I have to admit that I do not hold an atheistic view either. As someone who teaches geology laboratory courses, I find myself in a strange position in which I am bound to espouse the curriculum regardless of my own viewpoint. One of the commonly-held views in Universities is that if enough scientists or experts agree on something, it must be the case. Regardless of the subject, I reject this notion, however on the topic of "the origin of life" I must admit that I am not well-educated enough to refute scientific theory. One of my concerns is that when we are told of a particular idea or theory, we can only gain a shallow understanding of it, and that we often lack the time, agency, or ability to investigate it deeply. For example, I teach students about the composition of the Earth, and how we can understand it based on the velocity of seismic waves as they pass through materials of various phases. Have I ever directly examined the evidence for this? Of course not, I simply read it in a textbook and took it for granted.
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Duncan Miller




Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 138
Location: South Africa


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2017 00:22    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Pierre Joubert wrote:
...it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.
Pierre, it is uncivil to deride as 'idiotic' the reasoning of those who do not ascribe to your personal beliefs. No-one has a monopoly on the truth. Duncan
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
2
   

James Catmur
Site Admin



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 1336
Location: Cambridge


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2017 04:13    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Please can we please stick to minerals, not beliefs?
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Pierre Joubert




Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2017 12:46    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Duncan Miller wrote:
Pierre Joubert wrote:
...it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.
Pierre, it is uncivil to deride as 'idiotic' the reasoning of those who do not ascribe to your personal beliefs. No-one has a monopoly on the truth. Duncan


Hi Duncan, I have sent you a PM.

_________________
Pierre Joubert


'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. '
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Tom Mazanec




Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Posts: 139
Location: Twinsburg, Ohio

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 16, 2017 22:28    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Pierre Joubert wrote:
Duncan Miller wrote:
Pierre Joubert wrote:
...it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.
Pierre, it is uncivil to deride as 'idiotic' the reasoning of those who do not ascribe to your personal beliefs. No-one has a monopoly on the truth. Duncan


Hi Duncan, I have sent you a PM.


If it was a private message, then why did you not keep your sending of it private? Why did you have to call out on the public forum that you had sent it?
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Pierre Joubert




Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Dec 17, 2017 04:17    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Pierre Joubert wrote:
Duncan Miller wrote:
Pierre Joubert wrote:
...it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.
Pierre, it is uncivil to deride as 'idiotic' the reasoning of those who do not ascribe to your personal beliefs. No-one has a monopoly on the truth. Duncan


Hi Duncan, I have sent you a PM.


If it was a private message, then why did you not keep your sending of it private? Why did you have to call out on the public forum that you had sent it?


Simply because James told us to stick to minerals. At least I wanted everyone to know I answered Duncan.

_________________
Pierre Joubert


'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. '
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
3
   

Travis Hetsler




Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 4

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jan 06, 2018 17:40    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Pierre Joubert wrote:
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Suppose the first proto-bacterium never formed. How would Earth's minerals differ? Would there be all the ~5,000 mineral species on the planet?


My answer is no, it is idiotic to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of the advent of simple microscopic organisms that evolved into a hugely complex system that is the earth.


My belief: it is idiotic (and incredibly small minded) to reason that the complex life on earth was the result of an imaginary space pixie poofing the earth and life into existence, to the point that to call oneself a "believer" and a "scientist" in the same breath is an oxymoron, subject to dismissal.

So since this is a "scientific" website, let's leave the "beliefs" at the door and go back to civil discourse based on facts and logic.
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

dontgogreen




Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 79


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jan 06, 2018 18:03    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

You're going to have this thread shut down if you post deliberately inflammatory remarks, which is a shame because it's an interesting topic. You might edit your remark if you would really like to continue any form of discussion.
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4888
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jan 06, 2018 18:38    Post subject: Re: Minerals sans life  

Topic locked. It was a very interesting topic but the "beliefs" and "science" marry badly and I prefer not to leave room to continue in this way and generate unnecessary fires.

Thank you to all participants.
Back to top
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Like
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> Minerals and Mineralogy   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1
    

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2024


Powered by FMF