FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Carles Millan]

This specimen had been posted here last August at https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=6836#6836 Please, read it for more details.

It was purchased in Mineralientage München 2004 from a Chinese dealer who is specialized in cinnabar. I can't remember his name, but I've been seing him there every year since. He charged me €250 (€293 adjusted for inflation to today's value, about $390).

I got suspicious very soon after the purchase but until last week I did nothing else than adding a question mark to its record. Then I kept it immersed in acetone overnight. The next morning the cinnabar crystal could be easily separated from the dolomite with my fingers, a cushion of fibrous glue being uncovered under it. The cavity had been probably made with a mechanical drill. And several small dolomite crystals had been strategically pasted on the cinnabar crystal base to conceal the contact line. The trick was indeed hard to spot.

I think most (if not all) of the pieces such dealer sells are forged. Of course, no chance of getting a refund. But if next time I go and punch him in the face I will have trouble with the German police, so I prefer to think this is the price that has to be paid to learn to be more cautious.

[Jesse Fisher]

Where there is money to be made, deception will follow. I suspect this sort of thing is at least as old as human civilization. I have also unknowingly acquired a number of faked specimens during the history of my collection. It is always a learning experience and sometimes an expensive one. Commonly faked matrix specimens I have encountered over the years include these Chinese cinnabars, Colombian emeralds, and Pakastani aquamarines

But, as always, "buyer beware" applies. One must learn to look closely with a critical eye at potential purchases. Those acquired from known and trusted dealers have the possibility to be returned for refund or exchange credit. When buying from someone from a different culture where the ethics of such deception may be more acceptable, one must constantly examine specimens critically, and if you still return home with something that turns out to be other than you had thought, perhaps the best response is to say to yourself "well, what have I learned this time?" A little publicity of the item in a forum such as this one doesn't hurt, either.

[lluis]

Good afternoon, Carles/List

May I have the name of seller?

Maybe I could spread his name and he would not be very happy. Some friends in China.
Honourable, not crooks.

I am very sorry to hear that horror history

With best wishes

Lluís

[Peter]

One american dealer came one year in Tucson and showed me two flats of chinese garnets assoctiated w smoky quartz. As most know the best garnets typically grow besides or at the base of the quartz crystals and not perfectly perched on the prism faces. Several specimens looked immediately suspicious and he was sure they were no fakes. I showed him a few where there was a minute unfitting onto the xls face etc... and most of the specimens had several glued on to garnets making them look much more attractive than the real specimens.

[Peter Megaw]

I actually had a very positive experience with a "composed" fake like this that I was offered in Naica, Mexico. It was a 2 cm bournonite wheel on a minature fluorite specimen for $1000! It was appealing enough to look at in detail...which I did and immediately noticed that the bournonite was glued on. I pointed it out to the seller, who was very distressed to see that he had been duped and apolgized profusely. I asked how much he would take for it as a fake since I liked the bournonite crystal. He took the specimen, twisted off the bournonite (which fortunately came off cleanly) and said he would get his money back by returning the fluorite and that the bournonite was mine as a gift. It remains one of the best Naica bournonites I have ever seen and it comes with a great story. I still buy from this guy 20 years later and he has become quite adept himself at recognizing fakes and getting them out of the market stream.

Here's what I'd do with the cinnabar

I would take the specimen with you to the next Munich Show and demonstrate to the dealer how you discovered that the specimen is a fake and request a refund. His response will tell you a lot.. If he may be a victim himself and was unsophisticated enough to have purchased a number of fakes within lots of real specimens he should be flustered and give you your money back (it would help if you have the original label with price). If he gets defensive and denies it is a fake, tell him you are going to report him to the show organizers as a seller of fakes. At his point you will probably get your money back. But don't stop there...peruse his latest stock for fakes and if you find some, report him immediately regardless of the fact he gave you your money back.
If he doesn't give you your money back and his booth is full of fakes...report him to the German police as a terrorist...that will be much more satisfying than punching him in the nose!

[Carles Millan]

[Carles Millan]

[Peter Megaw]

He understands 'report you to the police"

[Carles Millan]

[Idahorocks]

[Peter Megaw]

I think if you look at my bio you'll see I often have "my tongue planted firmly in my cheek" it's way too easy to take ourselves too seriously here...

[Jason]

No offense to any chinese dealers or collectors and I am sure there are many that are on the up and up..but dang..what doesn't come out of china and IS not faked..I swear..in the gem world rule number 1 is never ever buy any gemstone if it has any ties to china..even the Thai's won't touch chinese gemstones..from electronics to knock-offs to gemstones and minerals..i have no idea what fosters or breeds the amount of bad goods that come from there..sure it happens everywhere but not the multitude that comes from China..to many people?..to poor an economy in rural areas?..poor morals? I am sorry Carles...it's just a shame we have to be suspicious(for me at least) of a place full of great and honest people that gets s a bad rep. from an unsavory few..especially from a place that now produces world class minerals on a regular basis

[Jason]

I know Astro Gallery had many many flats of the smokey on orange garnet specs...i had gotten 2 from them..sold them awhile back..didn't look or see anything out of the ordinary

[Tracy]

[Jason]

has to be heated really like Tracy said..i still remember my dad telling me aboiut playing with mercury when they were younger..hoding it in hand and rolling at around..I am sure some of the older memebers remember stuff like that..didn't know any better bacj then..folks were tough as nails:)

[GneissWare]

Tracy,
Here are a couple of pictures of modern mercury processing in China. Do you think this exceeds the TLV?
Bob

[Tracy]

Oh, the humanity!!!!!

I always wondered what the dude was doing in your avatar photo... :-)

- Tracy

[Peter Megaw]

This is really primitive distillation, but fully functional. It only takes about 500 degrees C to vaporize mercury from cinnabar and most retorts like this run at 600 for greater efficiency. This is a bit higher than you can get out of your kitchen stove, but not a whole lot. Check the hair and teeth and realize that this guy is maybe 42 years old...also note this is probably in his living room so the whole family is dosed with mercury from birth. The underlying tragedy is that there is mercury in flasks at metals refineries around the world that cannot be given away...

[Matt_Zukowski]

Wow, I too did not understand what was happening in your avatar photo. It makes me sad.

[John S. White]

We all know that the Chinese are remarkable artisans, anyone who can carve an intricate ornamental bowl out of tough nephrite with primitive tools would find that creating a fake specimen can be done with one hand tied behind one's back. It does not surprise me at all that there are many fake specimens being sold by Chinese dealers so one must be very careful when buying such. Guess I have been really fortunate because so far I have not acquired any that turned out to be fake upon getting them home and examining them with the microscope. If they look at all suspicious then I will not take a chance on them.

Ironically I never bought one of the fake coppers from China and I wish I had. They were cheap but all I have now are many photos of them. Perhaps I will get another chance. One dealer had them at the last Munich Show (Oct. 2009) and he refused to believe they were fake. As I have mentioned before on FMF there are now coppers from China being sold that are not fake, but they look totally different from the fake ones.