We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >

FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences


Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
28 Mar-09:37:50 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Cfrench58)
27 Mar-19:47:08 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Pete Richards)
27 Mar-16:15:44 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Cfrench58)
27 Mar-15:18:59 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Alfredo)
27 Mar-14:39:29 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Cfrench58)
27 Mar-05:21:48 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Mim Museum)
27 Mar-05:03:26 Re: trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations. (Ning)
27 Mar-02:39:50 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Tobi)
27 Mar-00:23:28 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
26 Mar-00:53:41 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
25 Mar-13:32:10 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
25 Mar-00:25:58 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
23 Mar-13:35:22 Re: collection of firmo espinar (Firmo Espinar)
22 Mar-08:32:28 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
22 Mar-04:20:41 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Mim Museum)
21 Mar-22:49:19 Re: green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
21 Mar-22:47:40 Re: green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
21 Mar-22:45:25 Re: green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
21 Mar-15:34:23 Re: the mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
21 Mar-14:35:08 Re: jim’s mineral collection (Jim Wilkinson)
21 Mar-14:15:36 The 4th phoenix heritage mineral show (phms) hosted by mineralogical society of arizona (m (Chris Whitney-smith)
21 Mar-04:36:10 Re: the mizunaka collection (Tobi)
21 Mar-04:11:47 Re: jim’s mineral collection (James Catmur)
20 Mar-23:34:15 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
20 Mar-18:13:16 Re: jim’s mineral collection (Jim Wilkinson)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
111802


The time now is Mar 28, 2024 11:34

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
The information provided within this Forum about localities is only given to allow reference to them. Any visit to any of the localities requires you to obtain full permission and relevant information prior to your visit. FMF is strictly against any illicit activities related to collecting minerals.
Spodumene color question
  Goto page 1, 2  Next
  Index -> The Ten Thousand Club
Like


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Carrington




Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Washington State

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 15, 2011 23:09    Post subject: Spodumene color question  

Hello, I am unsure about green spodumene and its variety name. I have seen green spodumene referred to as Hiddenite, especially in Hiddenite, NC. But I have also seen green spodumene from Brazil (Resplendor), but it is labeled just as spodumene. Is a green spodumene from brazil also called hiddenite? Thanks.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

robynahawk




Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 94
Location: Orange County, CA

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 00:54    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

This is one of the problems that come up when gems are named for their location. Brazilian Green Spodumene probably isn't Hiddenite anymore than Copper Bearing Tourmaline from Africa is Paraiba.

At least that is my opinion...for what it's worth.

Robyn Hawk

_________________
Find me at: facebook com/RockGemMineralClubs
facebook com/TucsonGemShow
Tucson at tucsongemshow.blogspot com
Home at flyviewsandreviews.blogspot com
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Carrington




Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Washington State

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 01:22    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Hello Robyn,
I appreciate the response, But one thing I do see is some green spodumene from other places labeled as hiddenite. If green spodumene is not hiddenite (which I am not saying it is) then what is it? Of course there are some varieties of spodumene, such as kunzite, then Triphane. Triphane seems unofficial, but I am not sure. Mindat refers it as Colorless or light yellow, transparent Spodumene.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jesse Fisher




Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 628
Location: San Francisco


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 01:54    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

The only "official" mineralogical name for any spodumene is spodumene. Kunzite, triphane and hiddenite are varietal names applied at various occasions to different colors of the mineral. They have no IMA accepted definitions and thus the meaning is largely dependent on the user. An analogy is the use of the names "aquamarine," "morganite," "helidor," and "emerald" for various different colors of beryl. Emerald is generally accepted to mean a green beryl that contains chromium as the chromophore, however, vanadium can and does sometimes account for the same color. It's my understanding that hiddenite from it's namesake location is also Cr-bearing, so one could say that only green spodumene that is Cr-bearing should be called hiddenite. This, however, gets us into the same argument as to whether any Cu-bearing elbaite can be called "paraiba" regardless of whether it is from Paraiba or not.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4888
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 02:15    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Perfect definition Jesse. Totally agree.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 04:53    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

To expand on Jesse's excellent comments, as I understand it the GIA does not regard the Brazilian green spodumene as hiddenite because the chromophore is not chromium. I am not sure that this is a valid argument. Green beryls were called emeralds before anyone knew what the coloring agent was, so perhaps the first "emeralds" were actually colored by vanadium and not chromium. This is unlikely, I realize, but I say this just to make a point.
_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

ellencmoe




Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 35
Location: Los Angeles, CA

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 10:54    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

This is slightly off topic, but the Oceanview Mine has done some interesting tests on their spodumene to see if they change color in sunlight and if putting sun tan lotion on the stone will reduce the color loss.

They have hit a very rich area in the mine and some of their spodumene finds were displayed last year at Tuscon.

Their finds and the tests they have run are shown on their Facebook page which you can access from their website:
https://www.digforgems.com
(link normalized by FMF)

_________________
EllenMoe
Los Angeles, CA
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Carrington




Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Washington State

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 11:47    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Hello Jesse,
Thanks for the response. I did know that the variety names were not actual IMA classified, I just was wrong using the word official. Thanks for your help though, I know to label my green Brazilian Spodumene just spodumene now.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

TheBrickPrinter




Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 20
Location: Lillington, NC

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 12:05    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

I think one of the great beauties of mineral collecting as a hobby/passion is that it not only about mineralogy, chemistry, aesthetics, but also has a very important geographical element. And for that reason, especially in the case of Hiddenite, I think that that varietal designation should be used only for those green spodumene specimens that occur there. It was first found there and described and named for that particular locality. As a mineral collector, locality is manytimes as important or more so than the quality of specimen and that is what makes this whole hobby so much fun and enlightening. I mean some of the most geopgraphically aware people are mineral collectors--they have to be. ,

In the case of Hiddenite, the name and the locality for many many years has been inextricalby connected as for quite a few years there was no other real occurrence. So in this case, As a variety, it is not like say "amethyst" which is generic. It does indeed refer to a specific locality. One can have amethysts from multiple localities, but in the case of hiddenite, the locality is part and parcel of varietal name. It would be interesting to see how many other varieties are like "hiddenite".

_________________
The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To be aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair.
Walker Percy
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 13:23    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

I can come up with at least three. The first was mentioned by Jesse, paraiba tourmaline. Another is tanzanite. If similar bluish lavendar zoisite were found in another country, it might reasonably also be called tanzanite. To give it another varietal name would seem to me to be inappropriate. Tsavorite, green grossular, was first found in Tanzania, but it has subsequently been found in at least three other countries, and is called tsavorite just the same.
_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Luiz Menezes




Joined: 10 Dec 2009
Posts: 140
Location: Belo Horizonte

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 20:23    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Carrington, my opinion is that the varietal mineral names should not be applied on a strict sense; on this case, "rubelite" should be only applied to ruby-red tourmalines, not to pink neither to beat-coloured stones; also "indicolite" should be applied only to indigo-blue tourmalines, never to medium-blue or greenish-blue stones; "heliodor" should be used only to deep golden-yellow beryls, so most Ukranian specimens, that show a greenish-yellow shade, should be disqualified as heliodors.

John, you have a good relationship with GIA, I would suggest you to convince them to extend the strict rule on the case to the hiddenite to all other varietal names of gemstones (like the 3 ones I mentioned above); by the way, emeralds should also always have a Cr-content certificate..

I totally disagree with the opinion of the TheBrickPrinter; Hiddenite is a world class mineral locality, and the name given to the green chromian-spodumene found there for the first time was a well-deserved homage, but this does not mean that önly the green (chromium-bearing or not) spodumenes from there deserve to be called hiddenites; this would be against the tradition and the rules of the mineral and gemstone markets; on this case the only brazilianites should be the ones found in Brazil; the only spessartines should be those from Spessart, Germany, etc.

On my opinion the green spodumenes from Resplendor can be also called hiddenites.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Carrington




Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Washington State

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 16, 2011 21:40    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Luiz,
Thanks for the reply. I also think green brazilian spodumene should be Hiddenite- but maybe that just depends on if it has chromium.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 17, 2011 04:08    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Luiz, while I do indeed have a "relationship" with the GIA, I do not have much influence, and certainly not enough to persuade them to accept Brazilian green spodumene as hiddenite. I believe that their position is entirely arbitrary and unsupportable, but it also is without authority. Everyone is perfectly free to call it whatever one wants, so if you prefer to call it hiddenite, you will never go to jail for that.
_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter




Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 346
Location: Sweden / Luxembourg

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 17, 2011 04:54    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

In my opinion Hiddenite (deep green spodumene colored by Cr and possibly V) is so far only known from NC. Indeed one could argue of the naming and compare to Indigolite (Indicolite) which simply means as Luis has pinted out Indigo blue tourmaline and with no to me known connection to a specific coloring agent.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Elise




Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 243
Location: New York State


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 17, 2011 15:56    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

For those who haven't seen it, there is a wonderful piece in Rocks & Minerals 2010 which explores this: " “Real” Hiddenite and Real Names." R.C. Tacker, Rocks & Minerals, Vol. 85, No. 3, pp 264-268. Mark Mauthner also touched on it in his 2011 paper in the same magazine: "The History of Kunzite and the California Connection." M. Mauthner, Rocks & Minerals, Vol. 86, No. 2, pp 112-131.

Cheers!
Elise

_________________
Elise Skalwold
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 17, 2011 21:07    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Peter - there is a big difference between hiddenite and names like indicolite and rubellite. As you know, hiddenite is the name of a specific location, so the question refers to the reasonableness of using that name for green spodumene that is not from Hiddenite. Indicolite and rubellite are colors, so there is no geographical connection. Luiz, I believe, complicates the argument in introducing brazilianite because that is a species name and its use is required no matter where it comes from. The same is true for all mineral species names that are derived from specific geographical locations, such as benitoite, graftonite, durangite, cornwallite, etc. Benitoite from Japan is still benitoite. Essentially there are rules for species names, there are none for varietal names. You can call them anything you want. The funniest one that I am aware of is the attempt by some to call red beryl from Utah "red emerald." That is completely crazy, in my opinion. If you are going to corrupt common sense to that degree, then I suggest calling it ruby emerald. That is even crazier!
_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter




Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 346
Location: Sweden / Luxembourg

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 18, 2011 08:09    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

I fully agree John only I believe the Cr (V) bearing emerald green spodumene variety was named after Mr William Hidden. The town got it's name after Hidden and the variety Hiddenite if my memory is not failing.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 18, 2011 13:06    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Your memory is fine and you are quite correct. But, of course, the variety is associated now with the community.
_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter




Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 346
Location: Sweden / Luxembourg

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 18, 2011 15:22    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

Dear John
My note was originally mcuh more extensive but was lost while sending from an ipad.
I was comparing with Morganite named after J.P. Morgan. Of course with variety name of a mineral specie one should read all the original documents and notes of the discoverer/s to try to understand their intention and reasoning for the naming, which may be more specified as sience developed of course.
The russian named short prismatic alcali rich beryl of white and later pink color from pegmatites in the Urals and Transbaikal Vorobyevite. Now the pink variety was later called Morganite in the USA which has now been accepted almost worldwide.
Take care and I hope to see you soon my friend!
Peter
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Rick S.




Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Connecticut

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 02, 2011 18:08    Post subject: Re: Spodumene color question  

In the old literature about the pegmatite localities in Connecticut green beryl was always referred to as Emerald but it did not contain Vanadium either. The color was shown to be due to iron . No emerald has ever been found in CT (or any other New England State) as far as I know.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> The Ten Thousand Club   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 2
  Goto page 1, 2  Next  

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2024


Powered by FMF