We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >

FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences

FMF English Forum is moderated by John S. White and Peter Megaw
 

Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
14 Dec-22:46:18 Re: minerals of dr congo, katanga. (Roger Warin)
14 Dec-16:40:57 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
14 Dec-15:54:05 Re: franjungle collection (Franjungle)
14 Dec-14:18:24 Re: collection of michael shaw (Crosstimber)
14 Dec-14:11:30 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Cascaillou)
14 Dec-12:18:14 Re: faden quartz crystals - (26) (Frei Hans)
14 Dec-12:17:10 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Philippe Durand)
14 Dec-10:38:53 Re: percentage of minerals known (Riccardo Modanesi)
14 Dec-04:13:50 Re: percentage of minerals known (Alfredo)
14 Dec-03:53:10 Re: percentage of minerals known (Riccardo Modanesi)
13 Dec-22:09:25 Re: percentage of minerals known (Alfredo)
13 Dec-17:59:43 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Cascaillou)
13 Dec-16:01:15 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Josele)
13 Dec-15:58:23 Re: minerals of dr congo, katanga. (Roger Warin)
13 Dec-13:53:58 Re: minerals of dr congo, katanga. (Roger Warin)
13 Dec-13:27:15 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Peter Lemkin)
13 Dec-12:54:37 Re: need help determining what this is (John Betts)
13 Dec-12:54:13 Re: need help determining what this is (Vic Rzonca)
13 Dec-12:46:02 Re: minerals sans life (Pierre Joubert)
13 Dec-12:25:09 Need help determining what this is (Billclutch)
13 Dec-11:42:42 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Peter)
13 Dec-09:32:14 Re: collection of michael shaw (Crosstimber)
13 Dec-08:13:27 Re: franjungle collection (Franjungle)
13 Dec-08:03:36 Re: collection of tobi (Tobi)
13 Dec-08:02:45 Re: prospecting pegmatite for schorl: need help. (Cascaillou)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
36665


The time now is Dec 15, 2017 05:19

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
The Paraiba controversy rages on!
  
  Index -> The Ten Thousand Club
Like


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Jim




Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 10, 2008 04:39    Post subject: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Has anyone seen the latest article in JCK Magazine about a Paraiba tourmaline company potentially suing the AGTA and GIA over the extension of the name "Paraiba tourmaline" to all cuprian elbaite regardless of origin? Apparently, the debate on what is a Paraiba tourmaline rages on!
_________________
Jim

MAD about crystals
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 3965
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 10, 2008 05:20    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

For me the answer is very easy: "Paraíba Tourmaline" mean Elbaite (Tourmaline) from Paraíba, that's what its name say. Other cuprian Elbaites (Tourmalines) from other places could be named: "Cuprian Tourmalines looking like the Paraíba ones, but not from there" ;-), or to simplify: "Cuprian Elbaite".

Anything new about the "elastic" names used by the world of gemstones. John wrote a wonderful article about it on Rock & Minerals, when he be back from his trip maybe he could add something.

Jordi
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jim




Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 10, 2008 09:12    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Thanks for your input, Jordi!

Locality can be an important determinant of value for mineral specimens, as well as for gems (e.g., Burma vs Vietnam ruby; Colombian versus Brazilian emerald, etc.). Mineral collectors probably value cuprian elbaite from Brazil higher than from specimens from other sources, but it seems to me that only the most serious gem connoisseur would care about locality. Color and quality are the foremost considerations to gem buyers -- it often does not matter where the material is from.

In fact, one of the most well-known and advanced gem collectors in the world has told me more than once that he never pays premiums for localities! Mineral collectors would be flabbergasted at such a notion.

_________________
Jim

MAD about crystals
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Modreski
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 605
Location: Denver, Colorado


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 10, 2008 11:19    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Another gem mineral name like this that comes to mind is "Siberian" amethyst, used for a particular (hope I'm saying this right) vivid red-purple shade of amethyst. It think it is fair to say that this term has become generally used for any amethyst of this shade of color, regardless of its place of origin. Searching for this term on the web, the first website I encountered that described & pictured Siberian amethyst stones, gave"place of origin = Africa" for them. Now of course, careful and more professional and scientific writers, would still put "Siberian" in quotes.

Happily though, this problem mostly applies to gemstones or gem material, rather than mineral specimens, so no one is going to refer to a MINERAL specimen of blue cuprian elbaite from Africa, as Paraiba Tourmaline. They might refer to it as "Paraiba-type tourmaline", which is fine.

Pete
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

robynahawk




Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 94
Location: Orange County, CA

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 10, 2008 11:49    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

I think that this is going to be an ongoing problem as the demand for gems grows. The TV Shopping Channels have added a huge audience to the world of gems & jewelry.
As well as the advanced prospecting and mining techniques being used in 3rd World Countries...it is going to be an issues with many different gems.

I have heard there are rumblings about the "Tahitian Pearls" they are growing off the Southern Coast of Australia! ...and what about stones that have their originating location as their name! Spessartite, Tanzanite, Bytownite....etc!

As far as Paraiba Tourmaline - these new finds have also opened new opportunities for the mines in Paraiba, as we now think of Paraiba Toumaline as any Copper Bearing Tourmaline - not just the Neon Aqua!

Just food for though...

Robyn Hawk
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Modreski
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 605
Location: Denver, Colorado


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 10, 2008 12:34    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

And then, of course, there is the matter of the provenance of ...

Champagne !
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Carles Curto
Site Admin



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 160
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 11, 2008 01:37    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Gemmology (or, more comcretely Jewellery, may be?) seems not specially careful with names and localities. I add the habitual treatments to accentuate or simply change the color. Paraiba Elbaite is not an exception.
But this methods seems to be more and more exported to the especimens of mineral collection. Last Munich show offers a lot of Pakistan turmalines thermically coloured. Some dealers advert it, but not some other.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Joan R.




Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 75
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 15, 2008 08:31    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Herewith attached you could find the interesting columns wrote by John S. White about Paraíba Tourmaline.

Columns about Paraíba Turmaline controversy published by John S. White
on the volume 82, Mars/April 2007
of the ROCKS & MINERALS magazine: http://www.rocksandminerals.org/






_________________
Joan Rosell
lengenbach(.)com
Grup Mineralògic Català
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

alfredo
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 654
Location: New York


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 15, 2008 08:50    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

If a polar bear is born in a zoo in Australia, is it still a polar bear or not?
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 3965
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 15, 2008 08:58    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Of course is it Alfredo, but is not an "Alaskan polar bear" but just a polar bear.
Problem with Paraíba Tourmaline is that its name includes not only the species name but also its location.

Jordi
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

alfredo
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 654
Location: New York


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 15, 2008 09:19    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Exactly, Jordi. But "alaskan" is an adjective describing where the bear came from; it's not part of the species name. So we need to decide whether "paraiba", "herkimer", etc., are locality adjectives, or part of a genuine distinguishable variety name. If it's a locality name, then using it for something from somewhere else is fraud. But if it's part of a varietal or species name, it can legitimately be used for material with the same chemistry/structure/appearance from anywhere. There is a difference between a varietal name and a locality label. The proponents of the "uniqueness" of herkimer-type quartz from Herkimer are trying to have it both ways - they want the name to be both a locality label and a varietal name, simultaneously.

Brazilian gem dealers want electric-blue tourmalines from anywhere in northeastern Brazil (not only Paraiba) to be called "paraiba tourmaline", but deny this right to electric-blue copper-bearing tourmalines from elsewhere. That is strictly a commercial brand-name issue they can argue in the courts, but it has nothing to do with mineralogy, gemmology or any other science!

Personally, I don't use varietal names at all - they are just "quartz" and "Cu-bearing tourmaline" in my collection.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Tracy




Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 538
Location: Toronto


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 15, 2008 10:30    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Norway Spruce (Picea abies), Siberian Husky (recognized by the AKC as an official breed), Baltimore Oriole (Icterus galbula), Canada Goose (Branta canadensis), Chilean Sea Bass/Patagonian toothfish (Dissostichus eleginoides), Swiss cheese, Spanish omelet, Turkish coffee...what a slippery slope this is. Zoos do not post signs identifying California Condors as "black vultures with patches of white on the underside of the wings and a largely bald head with skin color ranging from yellowish to a bright red," and restaurants do not list on their menus "a style of pork sausage which is noted for its seasoning of fennel and/or anise, containing at least 85% meat" rather than Italian sausage. Do varietals qualify as legitimate parts of names, even if common names only, or simply as descriptors? I doubt there's one "correct" answer here.

Just my 2 cents...

_________________
"Wisdom begins in wonder" - Socrates
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Modreski
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 605
Location: Denver, Colorado


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 15, 2008 11:34    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

All very interesting and amusing and curious.

Hearkening back to my earlier comment about champagne, I often still get a chuckle when I think about a vignette from one of the radio episodes of Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion". His character is dining at Lake Wobegon's only erstwhile gourmet restaurant, the Café Boeuf, and he is telling the snooty French waiter "Why don't you carry any Oregon Chardonnays, they are pretty good". The outraged waiter sneers to him, obviously barely controlling his temper, "Oh, so then tell me, Monsieur, just where is this place in Oregon called, "Chardonnay"? "

One could do the same skit about Paraiba tourmaline, etc., but I guess the mass of the people would not comprehend the humor.

Pete
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

lluis




Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 554

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 16, 2008 13:37    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Good evening

But in this case, in the Chardonnay, the name comes from the varietal wine plant...
So, in purity, a Chardonnay made from chardonnay wine plants (well, grapes), could be named Chardonnay. :-). Like a Pinot gris, a Pinot noir, a Shiraz, a Muscat...
But not a Tokaj not made in Humgary, or a Sauternes not made in France....Or a champagne not made in Champagne region (although I prefer cava...You know, catalans are very fond of that :-) )

And I got quite upset when I read one time, in the net, an offering of a specimen as Paraiba tourmaline, from Madagascar..... :-)

With best wishes

Lluís
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

lluis




Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 554

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 16, 2008 13:48    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Sorry, I forget

Other would be a Chablis
It is made with Chardonnay, with an special process.
A Chablis out of France, is not a Chablis
And a grilled seabass with a Chablis, should be a sin.
Is so good! :-)

With best wishes

Lluís
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Modreski
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 605
Location: Denver, Colorado


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 16, 2008 14:49    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Lluis, thank you for the corrections to my assumptions about "Chardonnay"! Now I am better informed, and I know that the nomenclature is not analogous to "Champagne". (I wonder if Garrison Keillor & company knew this when they composed that skit, because I'm sure the dialogue went pretty much the way I quoted it.)
Pete
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

lluis




Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 554

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Apr 17, 2008 03:55    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

Good evening, Pete/List

Well, the joke ia really excellent, and I am still laughing.
I know about that of chardonnay and chablis for a circumstance that involves more cooking than minerals. If Jordi lets me explain, I will place. I laughed also a lot!

On the other side, Pete, I would like to know only a small fraction of what you know in minerals!

With best wishes

Lluís

P.D.: sorry for delay, but last evening my ADSL worked so bad that I let....(for that the "evening" in the morning :-)
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jim




Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jun 12, 2008 17:56    Post subject: Re: The Paraiba controversy rages on!  

This development reported in JCK Magazine might interest everyone:

http://www.jckonline.com/article/CA6568364.html?industryid=20007
(link normalized by Jordi)

-- JCK-Jewelers Circular Keystone, 6/9/2008 8:39:00 AM
In an eight-page letter, Thomas E. Shuck, representing the American Gem Trade Association’s law firm Parker Milliken, details reasons why the name Paraiba can be used both as a locality and a color variety. The letter demands that John P Hannon II, attorney for David Sherman and Paraiba(dot)com, drop the complaint or "suffer consequences."

Sherman filed a $120 million lawsuit April 7 in Superior Court of the State of California, Santa Cruz, against the American Gem Trade Association; the Gemological Institute of America; Brazil Imports Inc.; and several individuals, including AGTA present and past board members. (See previous story)

Sherman objects to a move by AGTA and laboratories that belong to the Laboratory Manual Harmonization Committee concerning the name Paraíba. His suit claims that they have taken the locality origin classification Paraíba tourmaline and redefined it as a color variety classification, paraiba tourmaline, for similar gems found in Mozambique and Nigeria.

In a rebuttal filed May 29, Shuck, on behalf of the AGTA, writes: “We will give you and your client ten (10) days from the date of the\is letter to dismiss the Complaint, with prejudice. If the dismissal is filed within that time period, and only if the dismissal if filed within that time period, will my clients waive their claims to legal fees and costs which they feel have been wrongfully forced to incur, and which are considerable even at this early date. If Mr. Sherman fails to comply with this demand, we will proceed with a motion for summary judgment. When we prevail in the case, we will attach this letter to moving papers asking for sanctions under rule 11. I will likely recommend to my clients that they pursue an action for malicious prosecution against Mr. Sherman, his company, and you.”

Shuck makes several points that he and AGTA says negate the accusation that the place name Paraiba has been, as Sherman has been saying, “hijacked,” and claims that the $120 million lawsuit is “unmeritorious.”

Shuck spends five pages on “international nomenclature consensus,” including a history of the discovery and then naming of the electric blues and greens tourmaline from Paraiba Brazil. Subsequent history of the discoveries of similar materials found in Nigeria and Mozambique, with references to how the trade has used the name Paraiba not only to describe place, but also color variety. Shuck’s presentation then allows him to claim Sherman’s wrongful use case has “fatal deficiencies.”

Shuck points to that he defines as current trademark constraints. “Since Paraiba was originally a place name, it is not subject to trademark unless it has achieved a secondary meaning beyond its being the name of a place,” writes Shuck. He then points out that Sherman himself is trying to “register the word mark ‘Paraiba,’” suggesting that Sherman himself believes there is already a secondary usage of the name. “Based on Mr. Sherman’s assertion that ‘paraiba’ has achieved a secondary non-geographic meaning, as my clients maintain clearly it has,” writes Shuck.

“Tsavo Gem Imports, Inc., successfully registered the word mark ‘Paraiba Ice,’ Serial No. 76657016 on the Supplemental Register,” writes Shuck. Paraiba Ice is sold as “a simulant” with color similar to the Brazilian Paraiba Tourmaline. “On the basis of the prior issuance of the mark for ‘Paraiba Ice,’ there is virtually no possibility, barring examiner error, that Mr. Sherman will be able to register the name ‘Paraiba.’”

_________________
Jim

MAD about crystals
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> The Ten Thousand Club   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1
    

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2017


Powered by FMF