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Tucson Show 2013
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 06:26    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

That was a quote from a dealer and the comment does not reflect my personal opinion. I would be quite happy to double my cost on most items and would be satisfied with less than that for more expensive items.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 08:23    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

We had a rather common thing happen when we went with John to see a piece he had noted earlier from a dealer at the Inn suites. He had seen a few notable items for sale and bought a couple for himself. He told us about one, that was more significant in price, that he did not purchase but would love to show us. He knew what the asking price was, even though there was no tag on it.
The woman asked if we were the couple in the Spirifer publication she had seen. We said "Yes" and she said we had a nice write up. When we asked to see the piece, she pulled it out and told us the price, twice what John had been quoted...and here's the odd part, he was standing with us, she still gave the higher price. We were saddened as we offered her the original price she had quoted John. She said no, I think waiting for a bit of a barter, we thanked her and left, no sale was made.
This happened last year too, when a friend had taken a photo of a mineral for me, with price tag. I called the dealer, told him that I would be by to see it and could he hold it for me, pretty sure I would pick it up the next day. I told the dealer that my friend had seen it and told me about it. When I arrived the price had been jacked up considerably. I looked at him, told him I would give him $100 less than what he had it priced for the day before as that was punishment for him raising the price afterwards knowing that I was coming by. He apologized, agreed, and I bought it at a reasonable price.
It was not significant to our collection, but rather something I had plenty of. The interesting part was that I had taken this young man under my wing, and we had purchased quite a few things from him the year before.He cut his nose off to spite his face, as my Mother used to say.
I am not complaining, it is what it is, but I won't be doing business with either of these two vendors again.

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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 10:25    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Along similar lines to Gail's story, Rock Currier tells a story about a new quartz crystal find he was told about in Brazil. After an arduous trek, he finally reached the miserable hole in the ground with a pile of mediocre quartz crystals beside it. Rock thought he may as well buy it, having come so far, and the pile couldn't be more than a couple hundred dollars anyway. "$20,000" said the miner. In shock, Rock asked, "Why only $20,000, why not $50,000?"
Answer: "Because the fazenda (ranch) I've always wanted to buy costs $20,000, and you're the first rich person I've met." Which is why Rock calls this the "fazenda pricing" system. It seems the fazenda pricing system has now spread from Brazil to the high end portion of the mineral market in the USA :))

Then there's the Arab "suk" pricing system: no price labels, but the merchant is extremely friendly, offers you tea, tells you some jokes to make you smile... so that he can count how many gold teeth you have, which is what the final price depends on. For this reason I usually only buy from dealers who have clearly marked prices, individually on each piece. No price marked = one might get a bargain, but much more likely one gets overcharged. I've probably missed a few good deals in Tucson and Munich by ignoring unpriced merchandise, but shifting back and forth between normal shopping mode and the more aggressive Arab market bargaining mode is too stressful.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 10:32    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Something similar happened to a dealer friend of mine.
When the Fluorites with Calcite from Anhui Province in China where a novelty he had a fair and good selection of specimens all very decently priced. At one of the larger international shows there was a guy interested in one of the pieces, but only if the seller would knock a 100€ off the listed price. Since prices where already more than fair, the seller told the guy he could reduce the price by 50€ (already generous), but thats it. They made a deal and the specimen was sold. Half a day later I spot the same specimen in a case of one of the "High end" sellers for about 10 times the price. Apparently one of his minions had bought the piece for him, afraid he would otherwise be recognized. He written up a label and put it in his cabinet. There was another sticker of the label with "SOLD" on it.
To this day I still haven't figured out which person in this I feel the most sorry for.
The dealer friend who sold the piece in the first place, the minion acting of his/her bosses orders and having the nerve to ask for a discount, the high end dealer jacking up the price (just because he can), the poor sob who bought the specimen and about 10X the price or the average joe collector missing out on an opportunity again, because he simply can't afford it.

I sometimes wonder where it will all stop? People like that take all the fun out of the hobby.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 10:38    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

alfredo wrote:


Then there's the Arab "suk" pricing system:

Don't forget the Chinese "Calculator" pricing system.
The have numbers listed with their specimens, but still do some rumble jumbo with their calculators and usually end up with a number even higher than the number on the specimen.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 11:01    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Then there was the well-known German dealer at the Executive Inn last year (Tucson 2012) who, after I'd selected several pieces and was ready to check out, told me the label prices were actually euros, and I'd have to pay about 30% more in US dollars!

Some Eastern European dealers, too lazy to change their price dots between shows, leave the same numbers, meaning euros in Munich and dollars in Tucson, so the American shopper is getting a better bargain.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 11:21    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Gail,
I've known of some dealers who adjust their prices early during a show, but the show at the Inn Suites was in full throttle when you arrived - no excuse for that behavior.
Back in the 1990's at a small mineral show, just after the opening, I saw a great (and huge) undamaged Elmwood fluorite, sphalerite and Baryte combo piece that was priced extremely low. When I showed an interest in purchasing it, the dealer said they were told by three other dealers just before the show opened that it was priced way too low, that the prices of Elmwood had skyrocketed since it was last offered for sale 3 years before, and they were going to reprice it accordingly. I pointed out that the original tag was still on the specimen, and then asked how much more they wanted. The response I got was that it would be at least double, maybe more, and I tried to work out a reasonable solution. I was then told that they were thinking of taking it off the display, and that at it was currently not for sale. I went back to the show on the last day and it was still there, at the original price. When I asked about it, the dealer said that they were so busy they had not had "time" to decide what to do with it, but it was no longer for sale at the show. He retired from the mineral business the following year at the Tucson Show.
Looking back, it was a bargain at double or triple the price (or even more), but I'm more satisfied that I didn't purchase it and play games with that dealer!
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 11:36    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Things like that happen in Sainte-Marie too. I experienced it myself once after telling to a dealer to bring a specimen I was interested in. When he shown me the specimen the price tag was up by 40%. Consequence : he kept it. This is the reason why I no longer ask for specifics from dealers (put apart a very few selected ones). Thus the risk of having an increase on the price tag because one knows he has a potential customer lowers. But it won't prevent what happened to Gail. So, I think it is our "duty" to wander around and make comparisons whatever our budget.

Philip I have the same story for you from Sainte-Marie. Could it be the very same dealer ? Between the regular "show" and the Sainte-Marie theater (high end) the price had increased 10 times.

But is it so amazing ? As a friend of mine who is dealer pointed to me. He often sees people not even watching is booth and going directly to more reknowned dealer booths, where same specimens are sold several times higher than at his own. As if these people were more attracted by the reputation of the dealer than by his prices ?

And for the Chinese, the only time I bought something directly to one of them, I got a discount. But I practicised the teachings of a friend of mine knowing China quite well. Thanks to her I left the show without experiencing the Chinese calculator some experienced. However it was some years ago and I'm not sure it would still work today.

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Christophe
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 13:24    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

This discussion of mineral pricing is fascinating. I'm reminded of a long-ago talk at the Rochester (New York) Mineral Symposium. A prominent eastern dealer was discussing mineral prices, when he made the comment that "If a specimen sold, it was too cheap" (meaning, in essence, "I could have wrung a little more out of it.") I think he was kidding, but I'm still not sure!

Unfortunately, it seems that some of the high-end Tucson dealers have transcended that point by far, charging the price of a new car for some small specimens that appear to be mediocre in quality (dings, poor composition, not rare or well xllized, etc.). "Two extra zeroes" is often the rule, meaning that many of us are priced out of the market on the sorts of material that we need to improve our collections.

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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 13:52    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

These are what auctioneers call "light a candle prices"... (Go to church, light a candle, and thank the good lord for delivering you an ignorant but very solvent buyer.)

However ridiculous the high end dealers are getting, their pricing antics still pale in comparison to prices achieved by some art. Can a painting of sunflowers really have 7 zeros after the number? It doesn't matter that 99.99% of the human race thought the price was absurd. The seller only needs ONE person willing to pay the price. If TWO people get into a bidding war, and the entire rest of the human race thinks the price is stupid, doesn't matter, the seller is still in heaven.

But that segment of the mineral market, where minerals are professionally promoted just like fine art, or as "investments", has no relevance to the average middle class collector. I completely disagree with John and others that this phenomenon is scaring anyone at all away from the hobby. The high-priced dealers get most of the attention in magazines, internet show reports and after-hours gossip, but the majority of dealers in Tucson, Munich, Denver and Sainte Marie have far fewer zeros on their labels. As a buyer, if you follow the crowds to the most brightly lit booths with $20,000 display cases, then yes you will see high prices. Go to some poor Third World dealer outside in a dusty tent with no lighting and with patience and good observation among the busted up junk you will find some very undervalued pieces that just need a good wash and trim to turn them into valuable specimens. All part of the fun.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 14:03    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

I still think it comes down to your basic supply and demand. As long as there are people buying , dealers are justified to keep or raise the prices.

It is the same with people "job-hopping" and asking more every time they change jobs. At one point they will put themselves outside of the market, because they are simply too expensive compared to the work that needs doing.

What I don't understand is that with every single show in recent years prices seem to have gone up. You see a lot of collection recycling going on with many nice and world class specimens in it. I can agree they fetch high prices. I've met the occasional dealer putting up a ridiculous amount of money on a specimen, just because he actually doesn't want to sell. This is different. High prices seem to be commonplace right now. The decent quality minerals and subsequently the mediocre and low end of the spectrum get the same price boost, I pass.

I respect dealers and acknowledge that they must make a living as well, but simply raising the price "because they can" is not acceptable. However a sale is a commitment which leaves both sides "happy" and when collectors buy ridiculously overpriced minerals, simply because they come from a certain dealer I can't argue with that. They are happy for receiving there prestigious specimen and the dealer is happy for getting his money. Other dealers want that same part of the action and subsequently raise their prices too for mediocre or bad quality specimens. Even then I cannot really blame them, they are only trying to make a living.

It is this general tendency I can't live with, since it makes finding a good quality specimen for a good and fair price near impossible. The only positive side about this is that when you do find such specimen I find it's much more rewarding to acquire it, than it used to be.

On the other hand if a collector came to me and offered me an obscene price for one of my specimens I am willing to sell would I refuse? I don't know...
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 14:33    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

As a counterpoint, sometimes if the price is too low based on the competition, then people will not buy as they think there must be something wrong with the lower priced specimen. It takes an educated buyer to overcome this as most people equate quality and price.

Minerals are interesting from a pricing perspective because it is wholly subjective -- a dealer may really like a specimen because it appeals to him personally and thus mark it higher, whereas others may think it is nothing special. Also, how does a dealer come up with a price for old classic recycled specimens that are not available on the market? Some of the big dealers who price these kinds of specimens apply a pain threshold, I think, in which they try to balance the yearning of the collector to own such a piece with the collector's desire to have money left to eat.

There is certainly a philosophical divide in the dealer community. There are folks who sell everything at high prices, but also have the very best material. And, they don't mind 10+ times markups. These are also the folks with full page color ads in the magazines. There is the other group of dealers who you always go to because you know they have nice specimens at fair prices. Again, it takes an buyer to see the value of the offered specimens.

Lastly, the comments by Gail were interesting, and don't only apply to the mineral world. I live on a street that further up from me has really rich people. Most contractors, like plumbers, think everyone who lives on that street is rich. So, when I try to get a bid from someone I avoid telling them the address until after I get a ballpark estimate, because I know they have a rich-guy surcharge.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 16:46    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

i have to disagree somewhat with my friend Alfredo. Most novice collectors are not familiar with the opportunities that abound when one searches the inventories of many of the tent dealers along the frontage roads, and they do not trust their judgement enough to know or recognize a potential bargain should they stumble upon one. They also lack the knowledge of recognizing that some judicious cleaning or trimming can do wonders for some pieces. Furthermore, they have no clue what a fair price should be so that puts them in a very awkward position should they decide to try to negotiate the price. Alfredo's scheme can work very well for experienced collectors and, in fact, were it not for such opportunities I would leave Tucson with very little in the way of new acquisitions.
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 20:57    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

I've heard from friends who carry excellent quality specimens but are somewhat more reasonably priced than their top priced colleagues, that some of those with the super-high pricing have pressured them over the years to also raise their prices (which they've mostly rejected). There does seem to be a little collusion sometimes at the top. The very best is reaching stratospheric prices based on some wealthy collectors' willingness to pay top dollar for "natural art" -- mostly a matter of supply and demand.. But unfortunately some think that even mediocre pieces can command "fantasy pricing".
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PostPosted: Feb 27, 2013 21:35    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

The quote of the show:

My very good friend David Wilber assembled one of the very first collections of what we would consider outstandingly aesthetic and beautiful mineral specimens, far in advance of what has become fashionable today, as is seen by examples like many of the collections in the MAD and HAMS groups from Dallas and Houston respectively. So, when I had a chance to chat with David at this year's Tucson Show, I started to ask him if he had those minerals today, what in his opinion would he guess they would be worth at today's prices. Before I could finish the questioin, he put his hand on my arm, looked me straight in the eye and said "Half a billion dollars." No doubt this is a fair estimate, assuming that today's prices mean anything.

Published with permission from David.

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PostPosted: Feb 28, 2013 00:56    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Discussions of mineral pricing are always interesting and lively.

Unlike assets that produce income and therefore have an estimable value, mineral specimens are worth whatever willing buyers and sellers, at a particular time and place, say they are. I don’t think there are “right” or “wrong” prices.

One thing that does bug me about this business is that it seems to be an oligopoly, with a couple of big name dealers at the top having all the best specimens. These dealers all watch each other’s pricing, and seem to do a lot business among each other. This coordination is one way they maintain their oligopolist power. These dealers also have multiple and partially-overlapping sourcing arrangements all over the world, networks that would be very difficult to replicate, thus producing a competitive advantage. This competitive advantage prevents new entrants who might add competition and lower prices. It seems to me that the only way to break this oligopoly would be to form a sort of buyer’s coop that could balance the power of the top dealers, or even build alternate sourcing networks to disintermediate them. But I think it would be too difficult to organize and maintain such a coop.

To those here who say that mineral prices are crazy or “wrong,” I believe you are basing your opinions on your experience of how minerals specimens used to be priced. This experience, while useful and relevant, may or may not be a good guide to prices in the present or future. When I first got involved in mineral collecting six or so years ago, everyone seemed to think that mineral prices were crazy. Now I personally have witnessed rapid appreciation, with some particular specimens that I fancied but didn’t buy because I thought they were too expensive appreciating 30% in one year. So does that mean the prices six years ago were right and the prices now are too high? Or were the prices six years ago crazy and the prices now even crazier? And what if prices continue to rise until they reach parity with human-made art? Would that make today’s prices good deals? Who knows?

To those who say that people who pay today’s prices are stupid neophytes with more money than sense, I say that people’s reasons and contexts for buying minerals vary greatly. Certainly I shop all over the place trying to get a bead on the market before I make an offer, but I found others who don’t have the time or inclination to endure these search costs. To them, restricting their search to the big name dealers and paying premium prices for good but likely overpriced rocks is worth it. My own personal experience with Tucson is that I no longer spend much time walking through shows other than the Inn Suites, the Westward Look, and the Main Show because the search costs are just too high. Yes you may be able to find a specimen that you might get for $100, after a lot of bargaining, that would be cleaned and then priced $1,000 at a big name dealer. But to find that one bargain you have to look through tons and tons of crap, and it just isn’t worth it to me.

To those who say that dealers, especially big name dealers, are doing something immoral with their pricing, I just don’t know. They are business people trying to maximize their profits within the context of their own moral sensibilities and long-term goals. This is what I do in my business – if I see a profit opportunity that I think is moral and fits into my long-term goals, I take it. Most people, if they know they can cross the street and make a higher wage, will do so. Now, I certainly would be angry if I had the experience that Gail had with the dealer that gave her the “Spann price.” And like Gail, I would not do business with this person in the future. But did this dealer act immorally? I figure that dealers are going to charge me the highest price they can, given their business goals. In response, I will pay the lowest price I can consistent with my collecting goals. The dealer who jacked up their price to Gail seemed to be more concerned with his short term business goals. My own experience is that most dealers treat me properly, at least in part, because they want to develop a relationship with me and are focusing on the long term. Likewise, I have an incentive to treat them well because they are never going to share their experience with me or show me the good stuff, the stuff that never gets on display shelves, if I don’t treat them with respect.

My two cents.
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PostPosted: Feb 28, 2013 05:54    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

I do not believe that anyone in this discussion has accused the big name dealers of acting immorally. I may disagree with much of their pricing, but that is a different story. I enjoy the search for bargains or sleepers among the lesser dealers and that is where I find most of what I bring home from the shows. I spend very little time with the inventories of the major dealers because I know there is almost nothing there that I can afford.

A very diffrerent prespective.

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PostPosted: Feb 28, 2013 07:11    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

I fondly remember the good old days with much lower prices on minerals, and that included minerals of very good to high quality. My husband had finished graduate school and we were still living on an income from dealing in minerals. While at a Tucson Show during that period of time, he purchased the entire stock of a dealer's room at the old Desert Inn. We also were the first people at 1 am in the morning to view Harvey Gordon's room of the amazing pyromorphites from Kellogg, Idaho. We purchased a stack of flats of excellent quality specimens for much less than you'd pay for a miniature of the same mineral today. Those times were great fun and we have fond memories of our experiences at the mineral shows.
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PostPosted: Feb 28, 2013 08:53    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Ah yes Susan, bottom line...having fun at the shows. The joy I get when a friend buys a good rock is almost equal to when I buy a good rock. I say the more the merrier.
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PostPosted: Feb 28, 2013 10:32    Post subject: Re: Tucson Show 2013  

Susan, I remember those days too, but I have to remind myself not to look back at them with pink-tourmaline glasses. Salaries were much lower then (for us grad students especially), and there were certain New England dealers and rock shops in the 60's and 70's whose specimens were already out of reach for most of us (even their lesser stuff, but especially the coveted local pegmatite minerals).

That being said, I agree with you that there seemed to be a greater proportion of good minerals at moderate prices. I don't recall so many cases of extortionate prices being applied to inferior specimens, like I'm hearing about at Tucson this year. You had to shop carefully then and now, but now you have to work much harder at it. Funny how the best deals can still turn up at 1:00 AM in the last flat at the bottom of a dealer's heap. Shop 'til you drop!
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