FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jim]

I was doing some research on blue topaz and wanted to know how scarce are fine, blue topaz crystals from Japan.

Thanks!

[Jordi Fabre]

Jim,

Alfredo Petrov is the person who can give to you a proper answer. His knowledge about Japanese minerals is extreme. I assume that he is out, we should wait until his return.

Jordi

[John S. White]

I agree with Jordi that Alfredo is the expert, but in the meantime I have three books in my library on Japanese minerals and none of them mentions blue topaz. On that basis it would appear that blue topaz is not known from Japan, even though gem quality crystals of other colors have been found there.

[Jim]

Jordi, John

Thanks for your initial comments. Several online sources note that blue topaz is found in Japan, and I've seen a few specimens labeled as being from Gifu, Japan. I've recently seen an exquisite crystal of blue topaz from the Dyck Collection also from Japan, hence all my curiosity.

I await Alfredo's commentary!

Cheers

[John S. White]

The problem with blue topaz crystals, having no matrix and few distinguishing characteristics that might help pinpoint a source, is that the locality can very easily be misrepresented. We all know that at least one major dealer is famous for wholesale locality misrepresentation, so it is something that we have to be alert to and concerned about. A label with a Japanese locality on it does not necessarily mean that the specimen is actually from Japan.

[Jim]

Hi John,

Yes, you are absolutely correct. My earlier point was simply that I have seen numerous references to topaz from Japan, and specifically, that blue topaz is also apparently known from the locality. For example, Kiyoshi Kiikuni had studied the Dyck crystal and felt absolutely sure it was legit. Kiyoshi has also handled other Japanese topaz crystals with blue tints. Of course that's not the same as scientific verification, but here's someone in the know re: Japanese minerals who accepts the existence of blue topaz from Japan.

A real curious thing that Joel Arem has noted many times is that back in the day, when natural blue topaz was rather new, uninformed jewelers used to think that blue topaz in general was science fiction!

Cheers,

[keldjarn]

I have been fortunate to visit Japan many times and also studied minerals in private collections and museums there. I only remember seeing colourless or faint sherry coloured topaz crystals from the Gifu area. This need not exclude that also blue crystals occur there because other localities related to granite pegmatites and miarolitic cavities in granites around the world may have sherry-coloured crystals ( turning colourless after prolonged exposure to daylight) in some cavities and pegmatites and blue crystals in others.
I also remember studying closely the exceptional collection of my late friend dr. Kin-ichi Sakurai in Tokyo in 1983 when I was presented as a gift a pictured cataloge of his collection which includes a listing (in japanese) of topaz specimens from 5 different localities. I do not remember seeing any good blue topazes from Japan ( I am sure I would have remembered..) and also his cataloge includes many colour pictures but none of a blue topaz. His only picture of Topaz crystals on matrix from the Gifu area is in black and white presumeably showing colourless topaz crystals. In the MR vol. 20 no 5 ( 1989) there is a picture of a light sherry coloured topaz on matrix from Hirukawa in the Gifu area said to come from a (then) recent find of xrystals to 3 cm. In my own collection is a large cabinet specimen with about 15 colourless topaz crystals to 2 cm on smoky quartz and albite from Hirukawa, Gifu obtained from an old collection in Munich in 1992 and which may have had a sherry colouring originally (?). Good specimens of topaz of any colour from Japan are rarely seen on the market and I would consider large blue crystals of a true japanes origin to be really unique. Due to a large demand among Japanese collectors and escalating prices for japanese display specimens, the possibility for mislabelling in the trade as mentioned by John S. White should allways be considered.

Knut

[keldjarn]

An additional comment:

Until Alfredo returns on the web with his in-depth knowledge of Japanese minerals, you may find interesting information on Japanese topazes in his "Encyclopedia if Japanese minerals" available on the web. He mentions different localities of Japanese topazes also one at Shiga with blue crystals. As for the crystals from the Gifu area he mentions that all sherry-coloured or brown topazes fade in daylight sometimes to a light blue colour before becoming colourless. He also mentions that a much rarer green colour seems to be stable.

Knut

[Jim]

Thanks for the additional and excellent information! I'm seeking more information as well from Kiyoshi. In the mean time, Mindat shows an apparent blue (pale) topaz from Japan at: www. mindat. org/photo-150137.html.

Also, one reference I had handy shows what looks like a light blue topaz on matrix from Tonoka, Myama, Japan: Duda & Rejl (1996) World of Gemstones, Tucson: Geoscience Press, p. 42.

Thanks,

[Jim]

Hi Knut,

The blue topaz crystal from the Dyck Collection and reportedly from Japan is a definite (not ultra-pale) blue. I've attached two pics, although they do not emphasize the color well.

Thanks!

[Pete Modreski]

Earlier on the Forum, there was a back-and-forth discussion about the value of preserving labels that document the "pedigree" history of a specimen. This is probably a good example of the value of such labels or records--cases where the specimen itself may provide few or no clues to verify its locality of origin, so one might like to see what the pedigree history does or doesn't show, that might lend credence to its purported origin. Thus one might ask, what was the source of this specimen, before it was acquired by Mel Dyck?

If the specimen had passed through the hands of one certain Colorado mineral dealer, then its purported locality would be very suspect. If otherwise, if it came from a collector or dealer known for scrupulous attention to preserving accurate information, and perhaps even listed a specific Japanese dealer, collection or institution its source, then one could have much more confidence in the locality information.

best regards to all,
Pete

[keldjarn]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for posting the excellent photo of the blue topaz saif to come from Japan. Do you know th size of the crystal ? At first glance if coming from an old collection, and based on the crystal from an colour, I would guess the Urals in Russia as the locality but without matrix it would be very hard to tell the locality if there are no peculiar inclusions present characteristic of a certain locality. I am quite certain that I have never before seen a true Japanese topaz of that colour and quality - but admittedly there are many collections and museums in Japan not visited by me...

Knut

[Jim]

Hi Pete, Knut

Yes, it looked somehwat Russian which is why it was examined by Kiyoshi who was said to confirm that it was a legit Japanese specimen and corrected the Dyck label info that stated it is from "Otani-Yama, Shiga Prefecture." I've asked Kiyoshi to comment about his reasoning.

Before being acquired by Mel Dyck, it belonged to Mckee & Grace Caton. They purchased it from Charles Hansen. The crystal is 2.7 x 3 x 2.5 cm.

I've also never seen (or heard of) a crystal of that quality from Japan -- and the quality is even better than the amateur photo shows.

Any further thoughts or insights?

Thanks!

[Jim]

The mystery unravels a bit more!

I had slightly incorrect information about the locality beforehand. The piece has previous collection labels and a letter from George Hansen. Collector's Edge also immediately thought "Urals" when they saw this crystal in the Dyck Collection. This is why they consulted with Kiyoshi about its provenance and appearance.

Kiyoshi studied the photos above and had this to say about the specimen:
"The correct locality is Tanakami-yama, Shiga pref (formerly Otani-yama, omi). I think it was collected in late 1800s-1900 (Meiji Era). I thought it might be Tsunashiro Wada collection, and if it had old label that was handwritten by him I would decide to keep it for my own collection."

The crystal is also somewhat dichroic -- appearing a nice blue one way and rather colorless another.

Thanks!

[Gail]

I would ask Bill Larson's son, Will. He is rapdly becoming an expert on Japanese minerals. He has been to Japan numerous times and studied minerals there.
I don't have an email for Will, but I can give you Bills if you like Jim?

[Jim]

Hi there, Gail!

Yes, good suggestion. I have Bill's email but thanks anyway. See you this weekend at Jim and Judy's?

Cheers,

[Kiyoshi]

Hi Jim,

Why I did not take the topaz...I think it's about time to confess.
The crystal form is definitely different from Tanakamiyama topaz I have ever seen. I think it is Russian topaz.

Kiyoshi

[Jim]

Hi Kiyoshi,

Thanks for accepting my invitation to jump in here and clarify things. Whenever I come across what seems to be a highly special specimen, I like to see if it can be vetted and indeed everyone here at the forum helped do just that!

Highest regards to everyone!

Cheers,

[Gail]

Hey Jim,
See you Saturday at the MAD meeting!

[alfredo]

Sorry for jumping into this discussion so late; I've been picking up rocks for a couple weeks in the Ryukyu islands, with no internet access (which sometimes feels like a blessing and sometimes a curse).

I agree with Knut and Kiyoshi that this might not be a japanese topaz (although it's hard to prove a negative). The colour looks a bit too blue on the photo, and I don't remember ever seeing a really blue topaz in Japan. All the "blue" ones I've seen in japanese museums, private collections and for sale at shows have been very pale blue, hardly deserving to be called blue.

Colourless, light yellow or light brown are what one normally sees, and these are still being found in the field by collectors - usually having suffered some alluvial rounding as the collectors dig them up in the gravel in riverbeds and under swamps. (No one ever accused Japanese collectors of being lazy.) Most of the original pegmatites are long gone, having been worked out for their feldspar for the famous fine japanese ceramics. In the old samurai times, the topaz from these operations was tossed out on the dumps or into rivers, as no one had any use for it! (The local gem cutters preferred quartz.)

Cheers
Alfredo