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Blue topaz from Japan
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 05:20    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Virgem da Lapa is the right name.
Virgem = virgin on Portuguese language, so Virgem da Lapa = Virgin from Lapa, with Lapa as a geographical name.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 09:39    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Quite right, John. The correct spelling of the locality, in Portuguese (I am not fluent in Portuguese, but every map/geographical reference I have, indicates this), is indeed "Virgem da Lapa". Other versions are impositions of or incomplete translations to other languages (i.e. Virgen, Virgim).

As for the crystal, I also agree that it has more of a Russian appearance than those from Virgem da Lapa; however, Mimoso do Sul, is also a candidate, though if memory serves correctly the smaller Mimoso crystals did not have such deep a color and larger Mimoso crystals (as the on im my photo) tended to be color zoned. I favor the Russian attribution.

Cheers,
Mark



mm1710.JPG
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Mimoso do Sul, Cachoeiro de Itapemirim Region, Minas, Gerais, Brazil
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keldjarn




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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 13:22    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Sorry for the spelling error, we can all agree that Virgem da Lapa is the correct locality name. But the main issue remains unclear for me. The first post by Tony indicated that the topaz in question had locality information stating Virgem da Lapa and the question seemed to be if this would be so unlikely that it would be correct to guess the Urals as the right origin. Based on other photos of Brazilian topazes also with large pinacoids and my own observations I would not be very happy with i.e. a dealer changing label informations based on such guesswork - especially if that would make the specimen more desireable and expensive...
If on the other hand the crystal had no locality atributed to it and especially if it could originate with an older European collection, I would also guess th Urals.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 13:43    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

The point raised earlier by Knut seems quite relevant. That is, crystals from the Urals command higher prices than those from Brazil. Thus, relabeling a specimen from the Urals as coming from Brazil would make little sense. The alternative is that the specimen is from an old collection and was without a label, and the locality was guessed to be from Brazil.

My thoughts are to accept a labeled locality as true, unless I can conclusively prove it false. In this case, crystal habit is not dispositive for determining an error in the locality.

If this were my crystal, I would take it to someone like Luis Menenez who has seen most every rock that has come out of Brazil.

My 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 14:01    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Good afternoon

I understood same as Knut, and I saw in Mindat same as Knut.
And I agree with his reasoning.
I thought more in a brasilian one because I have seen more gem ones from Brasil that from Mursinska.
But, unfortunately stones does not speak, so..... :-(

On the other hand, even old collections not ever have the right labelling.
I own a pyrope (analyzed), that its previous labels state:
Oriental Hyacint (Ruby)
Later was relabeled as zircon....(before my birth...)
Some much more years later revealed to be a pyrope.
And it was from a very important collection, from a very knowledgeable collector.

With best wishes

Lluís
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Tony H Gill




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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 14:31    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Hi again all,

Thanks for the increased info. With regard to my specimen in question, this was purchased about 2 years ago from an internet dealer who claimed it to be from Brazil. Unfortunately it came with no labels (a lesson learnt - however from the pictures it still looked too good to miss!). Since this time, I have kept a closer eye on this particular mineral dealer for any other good specimens and have noticed from time to time that they have posted other specimens with locality mistakes. I left my specimen as is never really giving it a second thought, assuming all was ok until I happened across this thread which made me take a closer look at it. Thinking about it, It almost exactly reflects another I own, that I know for certain is from the Urals, in both colour and form : https://www.mindat.org/photo-171742.html particularly the crystal faces to the left and right of the pinacoid. It has no resemblance to another specimen from VIrgem in my collection (chisel termination) https://www.mindat.org/photo-150136.html , it is also true I have a relatively similar specimen from Mimoso, https://www.mindat.org/photo-134334.html (links normalized by Jordi) but it has a two step (dont know the terminology) to the front of the pinacoid which is not similar to the other 'Ural' crystals. I realise my response is not 100% proof but I have scoured magazines, internet sources etc etc to hunt down topaz specimens and always thought the specimen seemed 'a little too perfect' for a Brazilian topaz which I thought was a great thing to own in its own right! Does anyone have the details of Luis Menenez so he could take a look at this thread?

Many Thanks
Tony
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Tony H Gill




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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 14:34    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

HI Lluís

Just got your thread, sorry could you clarify, do you think this is Brasilian or from Russia?

Thanks

Tony
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 14:48    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

OOps! I spelled Luis' last name incorrectly.

His website is:
https://www.luizmenezes.com.br/index_english.htm
(link normalized by Jordi)

You could try contacting him, and ask if you could send him a photo.
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lluis




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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 15:26    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Good afternoon, Tony/List

I fear I am one of the heretic ones, as Knut.
I though it was from Brasil, possibly/likely Virgem da Lapa.
Then I would think that your label is right.
The Mursinska ones I have seen/I own tend to be less gemmy.

So.....

As just a comment, a russian friend send me a post about and old collection of platinoids. long time ago....The abstract is: from the collection, the majority (say 90%) were red arrows pointing nothing. 8% were arrows pointing to something that *is not* what is said. The rest was correct...... :-(

I suppose that I have a perverse sense of humour, but I like to collect "mistakes" (well recorded,of course)
At the end, we are human, and to err is human...That reminds me our condition :-)

With best wishes

Lluís
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Tony H Gill




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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 16:03    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Thanks Lluís, so this leaves me in a bit of a quandry although the majority say its from the Urals - is there any other means to be certain? Do you have any pictures that are certainly from Brazil that are the same? Is there some analytical/spectroscopic test or out there?

Regards

Tony
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 16:15    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

My 2 cents worth: A mineral collection needs accurate locality data - A few dubious attributions can devalue other peoples' trust in the whole collection, and therefore diminish its overall value. So, given the sad fact that any decision about this very nice piece will be little more than a guess, I'd recommend selling it for cutting rough and then looking for a new better documented crystal for the collection. ;-((
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Tony H Gill




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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 16:15    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Another picture of the specimen in quesiton


Virgem topaz braz.jpg
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Another picture of the specimen in quesiton
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Virgem topaz braz.jpg


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PostPosted: Aug 05, 2008 04:19    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Not sure that I am in agreement with my friend Alfredo, I would never have such a fine crystal cut. Just the same, I feel that it would be a serious mistake to conclude that any of us are correct and, as a result, label the piece as being either from Brazil or Russia. Any label for this specimen should clearly reflect its questionable provenance.

With regard to the comments of Ilius, there is a big difference bewteen a specimen being incorrectly identified and having its locality misattributed. In the former case one can always have the mineral identified with certainty, but when localities are confused there is seldom anything one can do to resolve the uncertainty absolutely, unless the appearance of the mineral or minerals is so distinctive that all would agree on the locality.

By the way, in my opinion dealers who intentionally misrepresent localities are the lowest form of life and at least some of them would be publicly denounced if it were not for the fear of litigation.

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Tony H Gill




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PostPosted: Aug 05, 2008 12:46    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Hi John (all)

Personally I agree with you, I have updated the details for the specimen in mindat in the description field to clarify that the locailty is being possibly from Brazil or Russia (the same goes for the associated label) - hopefully time will lead to the true locality, a little frustrating because I dont really care either way, I just want a single (accurate) point for reference. I appreciate everyones feedback.

Many Thanks

Tony
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PostPosted: Aug 05, 2008 13:46    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Dear Mr. White/Alfredo/Knut/....List

I agree with Mr. Sampson-White: the piece is too nice to be cut.
For locality, if label states Virgem da Lapa, I will stay as Virgem da Lapa.
I have not my Bideaux handy (two houses means that you have always the book you need in the other :-( ), but perhaps there is there some analitycal difference recorded.
Other is if any listmember has the Lapis special about Topasses (I collect the english version. In german is published, but do not remember if in english; I will check with Bideaux). Perhaps there is any signifiant difference between.

I will try to ask a friend gemologue if there are any recorded inclusion type that permoits to diferentiate both localities....

Agreed also with errors in localities and in attribution.

In the case of my pyrope, the localty given is not a big deal : California, USA (well, more precise than USA, but not too much....Just locality lost...)
May I ask any of the wiser members if any idea could be given to me?

And agreed that the ones that sell specimens missrepresenting the locality for the sake of more benefit are lowlifes!
And no need to be publically denounced.
Truth is like dust: it enters everyplace...
Soon or later people knows them, and his business would come to an end....

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Aug 06, 2008 04:21    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

This thread may have gone on long enough, but I can't resist adding a comment to those of Lluis.

I doubt that there are many published analyses of topaz, and I also suspect that even if there were, we would find very little variation in the composition of crystals from different localities, probably not enough to be able to identify the probable source on the basis of composition. Inclusions are a different story and it may be that one can find distinctive inclusions in topazes from certain localities, but I am skeptical, except for those from San Luis Potosi which often contain rutile inclusions, but these are found in rhyolites, not pegmatites.

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Tony H Gill




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PostPosted: Aug 08, 2008 14:35    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Hi All

I thought I had better share this, I realise the thread has probably gone on long enough now, and it probably sounds like I am clutching at straws but as I focus on collecting topaz, I may have a valid point - Ithese pics probably speak louder than words - so I can't resist posting a final thought regarding my topaz in question.

I have recently looked at it extremely closely alongside two other specimens (incl. Jims which is now in my collection). The one that is in question (Brazil/Rusia) has a matt/pitted pinacoid like the others the other two - I didn't mention this before.

Something that I spotted today was a little more suprising, when you hold all three to the light and look down the pinacoid ALL three have a white core, with two darker 'columns' of blue (see attached pic) running parallel to one another down one side of the crystal.

When the crystals are viewed from the side they appear pale blue and you cant see any colour boundaries. When comparing the one from Mimoso the blue is in distinct horizontal layers when viewed from the side.... this is not seen in the other three specimens....



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PostPosted: Aug 08, 2008 14:44    Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan  

Top view


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