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More about beta Quartz
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nitana2000




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PostPosted: Aug 21, 2008 14:44    Post subject: More about beta Quartz  

Here I up a new photo about wonderful (for me) crystal of quartz (little yellow colour and transparent) with inclusions on Hematite matrix; the little is "Beta Quartz" with have less 1 mm. size and with inclusions too. The specimen is from Guandong "Chine"... Please, sorry for my english. Thank you. Best regards.


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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Aug 22, 2008 02:07    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Nitana,

Thanks to share with us your nice photos. Just a friendly warning: please note that the Chinese Quartz can't be named Quartz-beta. You can see the text from John S. White explaining this here:
http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=1087#1087

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PostPosted: Aug 22, 2008 14:53    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Hello Jordi, thank you very much. I love "friendly warning" please say me always, because with them I can learn more...
I read the "little lesson in quartz crystallography" from Mr. John S. White...
But... What is this?
http://www.mindat.org/photo-173541.html
(link normalized by Jordi)

I speak about Quartz-beta for the little Q. in photo (not for big Q.), because I can not see it as a prism, I see it as true hexagonal dipyramid... Totally size about little Q. is less 1 mm. is very difficult see it... In the computer when I see the photo increase it I can see it more about a prism. Thank you very much and please always say me friendly warning. A hug from Spain.
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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2008 04:43    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

The crystal in the photo from mindat.org you provided a link to is indeed odd-looking but the locality is known for high temperature or beta quartz, so one is inclined to believe that it is properly labeled. What you will not find, however, are high temperature and low temperature quartz crystals growing side by side as are those in your photo. The absence of a prism does not mean that the crystal is a beta-type quartz, or high temperature, and I thought that this was made clear in my article. It is a little unusual to find a quartz crystal with no prism right next to one with an elongated prism, but it can happen and this is certainly the case with the crystals in your photo.

I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2008 12:51    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Hello Mr. John S. White... Sorry for my English. When I write "prism" I wrote erroneously I want say alpha or normal Quartz, but I am not speak English very well and was very difficult for me write about symmetry of Beta Quartz... Thank you very much for answer and for your patience. Best regards.
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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 05:31    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

About Beta Quartz, I hope this is yes Beta Quartz... This have 8 mm. Is from 2nd Sovietskiy Mine, Dalnegorsk... Is very difficult found photos of this Quartz. I am working for do best photo of this and up on Jordi´s Forum...
I learn a lot here and on Spanish Forum thanks too all writer on this... Best regards. Juan.



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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 07:17    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Sorry, this is not a beta quartz, even though the quartzes from Dalnegorsk are often mislabelled as such, even in the book on quartz by Dibble. If you look closely at the first image you can see that alternate faces are not equal, they do not all meet at the same place around the middle of the crystal, as would be the case with a true beta quartz dipyramid. The termination of low temperature quartz commonly consists of a pair of rhombohedra, positive and negative, more or less similar in size, but not equal in size. Further, the conditions of formation for the quartz crystals at Dalnegorsk were not those that lead to the growth of beta quartz; virtually all beta quartz is assciated with acid volcanic rocks and formed at very high temperatures.
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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 08:30    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Hello Mr. White. Oh my god!... I am not happy for read this... I could read more about beta Quartz, because all of I can read at this moment (In english and a little in Spanish languaje) say me this is a Beta Quartz...
Please can you say me about I found in this page?...

http://www.mineralatlas.com/mineral%20photos/Q/betaquartzcp.htm
(link normalized by Jordi)

Thank you very much.
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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 09:42    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Rob Lavinsky is flat out wrong, and I have written to him. I will let you know what he says in reply.
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nitana2000




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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 10:22    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Thank you very much for your patience with me.
I belive the last photo is from J. V...
but all this page about Beta Q. is wrong?...

Thank you very much Mr. White for all.
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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 14:01    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

I owe Rob Lavinsky an apology. The link provided by nitana2000 was not Rob's web site, and the error on the quartz was not his. Turns out it is some Mineral Database out of Australia, which judging from this foolishness must be awful. My sincere apology Rob. I will try to learn more about this awful Mineral Database.
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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 14:35    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Hello Mr. White. Thank you very much for all.
The home page is:
http://www.mineralatlas.com/General%20introduction/Introduction.htm
(link normalized by Jordi)

It is from Quennsland Unieversity of Technology.
Faculty of Science:
Inorganic Materials Research Program
Analytical Electron Microscopy Facility

For any errors or comment contac with: Theo Kloprogge
If you want see his mail are in the link at the end of page. Please sorry because my
English not very well...

Thank you again. Thank you very much Mr. White. Best regards. Juan.
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PostPosted: Sep 03, 2008 14:37    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

At this point I start to be confused too. The 5 first Quartz of that page were credited from Rob and the last one from John. The last one is not beta, OK, but the first five yes?. For me none of them is beta...

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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2008 05:32    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

None of them are beta quartzes. I have written to Theo Kloprogge, but he has not yet responded and may not. Perhaps if everyone who reads this thread will write to him he will feel pressured to answer. This can be a very interesting experiment in using this medium to help to correct a dreadful misrepresentation. He may feel he can ignore me, but he may not want to ignore all of you. People who publish such information in what is referred to as a Mineral Database have an obligation to GET IT RIGHT, and they should not perpetuate serious errors.
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nitana2000




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2008 06:01    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Ok Mr. White, I write to Theo too, and I will say it.

I saw too much pages and also talked with many collectors, and the problem is more big that this... Too much people think that this type of Quartz are Beta Quartz, and in the literature that I read describe this Quartz as Beta Quartz...
Anyway, I found one text which say that this is Normal Quartz "after" Beta Quartz. Is this possible?

This is an other page to be visited:

http://www.dst.unisi.it/geofluids-lab/basic%20b.htm
(link normalized by Jordi)

Please see fig. 3 and the text.

Thank you very much for all.

Juan
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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2008 06:49    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

The absence (or almost) of prism faces is not definitive to define Quartz-beta. Neat dipyramidal quartzes are common, for example, in Keuper (Triassic) layers, where, even considering possible genetic relations with the intrussion of ofites, to explain high temperature conditions would be complicate and very doubtful.
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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2008 08:32    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

I have a quartz-hematite combo from Guangdong which is described on the label as "alpha quartz after beta quartz." This is not scientifically correct, nor does it go so far as to refer to the quartz as a paramorph (as in the webpage we have seen), and I am interpreting it in a descriptive sense only - that is to say, "here is alpha quartz that has a form similar to beta quartz even though it is alpha." Clearly, though, this type of labeling is dangerous and misleading for the uninformed quartz collector who might not benefit from following this thread (I confess that the label to which I refer sounded much more "exotic" until this topic was posted)...
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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2008 00:31    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Hello to all, I have news for Mr. Kloprogge:

"Hi Juan,

Thanks for your email. Unfortunately this is a mistake on my website that I haven't been able to correct due to long-term illness., it is correct in the text section but not on the photos page. They are actually alpha-quartz pseudomorph after beta-quartz. When alpha-quartz is heated above 573 degrees C it changes to its polymorph beta, when cooled below 573 degrees it changes back to alpha-quartz again. Therefore it is impossible to find beta-quartz, but only alpha-quartz pseudomorphs after beta-quartz.

I hope this answers your question

Cheers
Theo."

Thank you very much Mr. Kloprogge for your answer. I wish you the best and a fast recovery of your illness.
I translate your email to the forum.

Thank you again. Thank you very much. Best regards. Juan Laureano.
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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2008 05:28    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

Technically the structural adjustments brought about by temperature changes are called paramorphs, not pseudomorphs. One can possess quartz crystals that are morphologically beta quartz, but they are structurally low or alpha quartz, and these have to have come from an environment that experienced extremely high temperatures, generally acid volcanic conditions.

Pseudomorphism implies the replacement, partially or totally, of the original crystal with something else. In the case of goethite after pyrite, the sulfur in pyrite has been replaced by hydrogen and oxygen.

And, as Carles pointed out, the absence of prism faces does not make a crystal a beta quartz crystal. Many low quartz crystals occur without prism faces, those from Cumbria, England, and Dalnegorsk, Russia, being good examples.

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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2008 06:57    Post subject: Re: More about beta Quartz  

As long as we are looking into the subject of beta quartz, I would like to share something with visitors to this site, something I was reminded of by my good friend Saul Krotki. Somehow he remembered an article that appeared in Mineralogical Record back in 1977, in volume 8, pp. 313-326, an article about some minerals from Laacher See, Germany, which are volcanic in origin.

All along in this thread we have been referring to "typical" beta quartzes as consisting of two pyramids attached base to base, formng a hexagonal dipyramid. Cumberland habit quartzes (alpha or low quartz) mimic this habit but are not identical to it because they consist of two rhombohedrons, positive and negative, which share a common central axis. Simple dipyramids, however, are not always the habit displayed by beta quartzes, as is well illustrated by the two drawings from p. 316 of the article, reproduced here. Wouldn't you love to have one of the "tailed" high quartz crystals as seen in Fig. 10?

Bellerberg, by the way, is one of the many quarries in the Laacher See area.



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