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"What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance
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Antonio Alcaide
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2013 03:47    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

Nice topic "to have a breakfast with".

Well, as a collector -pay attention I say "collector", not "mineral collector"-, a label is another collectible object. I can easily imagine people collecting only labels -I do not want to suggest ideas :-) As we have discussed in the past, the collector is a human being eager to collect everything, so " two collections better than one". Of course, a label without the provenance is a poor label in this context.

I think it is not worth paying much more for specimens with labels with the provenance, but a full label can lead me to purchase the specimen. I love rich-content labels that provide the history of the specimen. I like to hold a specimen that comes from a museum or a deceased collector. I would like there is a worldwide database for collections and collectors as well as another one for analyzed specimens.

My Sinkankas' Mineralogy comes with a stamp of the University of Baltimore Library ¿? "Baltimore" evokes me classic American movies -I live in Europe you know and I have never travelled to USA-, b&w old pictures, the genuine american flavour... what gives the book more value doubtless.

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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2013 05:48    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

This thread has generated a lot of very interesting comments and observations, including one that has long troubled me and that is that the overemphasis on provenance by collectors is sure to lead to chicanery on the part of some dealers. By this I mean the adding of labels to specimens that came from other specimens. I am not suggesting that this practice is widespread but we all know that it occurs. For this reason I find very troubling the listing of former owners of specimens in photo captions with articles in journals (ex SoAndSo collection, ex Joe Doe collection, ex Jane Doe collection, etc.). In my view this only increases the idea that former ownership matters more than it should. And when several former owners are listed one has to wonder why the mineral has been passed around like a hot potato. I would encourage editors to list only the current ownership of a specimen figured in an article, unless there is some compelling reason to do otherwise.
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2013 06:25    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

Good point John. Maybe 15 years ago, a friend of mine travelled to Tucson and had the good fortune to locate three cerussite specimens from the Comet Mine, Dundas, Tasmania, and to repatriate them. One was a large v-twin, and the other two simply smaller uglier aggregates of white crystals, still typical of the mine. The smallest one came with a museum label and they had received it a bit over 100 years ago. Unfortunately, a dealer married the label with the large v-twin in order to enhance its value. Fortunately, I had photographed the label, a copy of which is with the original specimen along with a note to this effect. Both that specimen and the copy of the label are in my collection.

I did hear, but don't know if it is true, that the v-twin split into 2 parts prior to its intended sale. Karma perhaps?



cerussite4.jpg
 Description:
Cerussite
Comet Mine, Dundas, Tasmania
About 80mm (from memory)
 Viewed:  14246 Time(s)

cerussite4.jpg



cerussite2.jpg
 Description:
Cerussite
Comet Mine, Dundas, Tasmania
Approx 40mm across
 Viewed:  14228 Time(s)

cerussite2.jpg



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Roger Warin




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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2013 08:58    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

Hello John,
It is a fact that I had not thought of. Thank you for notifying us. I will take this advice, at least for ordinary specimens.
Roger.
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Michael Shaw
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2013 13:44    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

As others have previously said, this is an interesting thread. I certainly agree with much of what has been said. Just the fact that a mineral specimen has been in the collection of a well-known collector is not a reason for that specimen to command a ridiculous sum of money. That said, I really value knowing the provenance of a particular specimen. Elsewhere in this forum, I have shown a heulandite specimen from Berufjord, Iceland which I acquired several years ago. The specimen is accompanied by a Smithsonian label which denoted that it was part of the Roebling Collection. I do enjoy knowing that Roebling once owned this piece, and whenever I handle this specimen, I think of him and his collection that became a part of one of our great public institutions. The history associated with this piece enhances my appreciation of the specimen if not its value.
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PostPosted: Nov 05, 2013 06:03    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

Hi to everybody!
What Tracy wrote is very interesting in my opinion too!
But...what's my opinion? My opinion is a piece has it's own history to tell us, for what kind of mineral it belongs to, for where it comes from (mine/quarry, geology/environment, former collection, etc.). Of course not everybody's name is Renè Just Haùy or Charles Linnè, nor does everyones collection belong to the National Natural History Museum. I know many people collecting minerals not by species, but by provenance, thus taking the issue "I have no specimen from the Cayman Islands", for example. Finally, I remember a member of this forum who always shows us his very interesting collection of historical labels, as well as his minerals! Am I right, Tobi?
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

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Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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PostPosted: Nov 05, 2013 07:38    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

Riccardo Modanesi wrote:
...I remember a member of this forum who always shows us his very interesting collection of historical labels, as well as his minerals!...

Please check Andreas Gerstenberg Collection
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PostPosted: Nov 06, 2013 03:40    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

I find old labels interesting, as they do help me know a bit about the history and that is nice. So an Arthur Russel label is nice to have (especially given how nicely written they are) since it adds some history, as was a Heuland label I saw recently in a museum collection (as it gives an idea of the age of the specimen).

But I have always worried about labels being moved between specimens and thus about 'fake' old labels. Is the specimen really from that locality or has an old label been moved to help it look that way? I know that can happen with new labels - but if the old label if used to prove it is from there, then can I trust that the label and specimen are really related?

Would I pay more for an old label - I suppose I might if it showed that it was from a classic locality, but then I would (and still do) worry about relying on that.

James
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PostPosted: Nov 06, 2013 15:20    Post subject: Re: "What's in a name?" - thoughts on the subject of provenance  

In old collections, and museum specimens, there was usually a number painted directly on the specimen, or written in black ink in a spot of white enamel, that matches a number on the label. You may be able to tell by the nature of the paint whether it's old. If no number is present on the specimen, it might still be really associated with the proffered label, but all bets are off.

In the rare species subculture of the mineral collecting world, big old clunkers are often broken up into smaller pieces, and then of course only one person can get the original label with their piece. The rest might get a photocopy of it, or just a footnote on a new label, depending on whether the dealer judges the value of the piece to be worth the trouble.
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