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What about heliodor from Tajikistan?
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parfaitelumiere




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PostPosted: Nov 01, 2008 07:48    Post subject: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Someone has told me about heliodor from Tajikistan and its artificial yellow color into the mineralogical record.
But I have seen a photo from "le règne mineral" showing a beautifull specimen from this locality...
The crystals don't have the same shape than those from Afganistan.
What about this?
Does somebody have some photos?
Thanks!
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PostPosted: Nov 01, 2008 09:51    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Good afternoon, Parfaitelumiere

Well, I am one of those infortunate owner of such "Tadjikistan" "Zelatoya Vada" "heliodors".

I am not aware that Mineralogical record told about that (I collect, but just not remember have seen that on it), but in english Extra-Lapis Beryl there is an interview with a russian expert that talks about such "heliodors".
Making the long short, he says that in Tadjikistan he is not aware of any pegmatite that produced heliodors. And the locality "Zelatoya vada", yellow waters, is a corruption of Russian...And lets the people wonder about..... :-)

I think that is generally accepted in the mineralogical community that those are irradiated aquamarines, either from Pakistan or from China.
The morphology is different, so, then the differences.

Anyway, a chaqun sèlon son goût, but mine is under the "faked" epigraph (small, thanks God :-) )

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Nov 06, 2008 08:31    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

This is a subject of great interest to me. I wrote a long discussion for the Forum while in Munich but I somehow lost it and so it did not get posted.

I have written a letter that was published in Mineralogical Record and a column that was published in Rocks & Minerals on this subject. If I can, I will attach the column. I wish that more collectors would subscribe to Rocks & Minerals, it is really a wonderful magazine full of very useful information.

After more than ten years no one has come up with proof that these heliodors are not from Tajikistan and that they are treated, nor can they show where this alleged treatment was done. Very strange! In my opinion the habit of these crystals differs from those from both Pakistan and from Afghanistan. Because of that it seems clear to me that they are not from the classical beryl producing areas of either of these countries. They have to be an entirely different source. Further, I am unaware of the treatment that will turn beryls yellow. Heating erases the yellow color, so if they are treated then it has to be by some other process. Several Russian geologist are said to have claimed that these crystals are not from Tajikistan. If so, where are they from? No one knows. I do not know. I should add that there are actually two very different kinds of beryl under question. The ones I am referring to are prismatic, very transparent and beautiful. Rarely they are with albite matrix. Others from a different locality are an ugly brownish orange and the matrix is usually muscovite which looks damaged. They are also flattened, or squat, not elongated like the other ones.

Finally, I love these heliodors. I have bought and sold many of them. I have one in my personal collection. So I disagree with Ilius, I do not feel "unfortunate" about owning them. They have great appeal. Whenever I sold one I always explained to the buyer that their origin is not certain, I explain the controversy surrounding them, but they buy the just the same.

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PostPosted: Nov 07, 2008 16:36    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

The Rocks & Minerals column


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parfaitelumiere




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PostPosted: Nov 09, 2008 12:35    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

I have foud a photo from"le règne minéral" dating of 1999,it shows "beryl,rangkul,tajikistan"
the shape is the same as the on I have attached on the photo.
I have read that heating threatment changes green color to blue,not the opposite.
I don't know what could give the yellow color,and if the color is the same into all the crystal,or not(it may be yellow on the top and yellow-green on the bottom?)



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PostPosted: Nov 09, 2008 16:06    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Dear Mr. John S. White

I have not handy the english Extra Lapis where the russian expert explains his thoughts about that.
I will have in a week or two (troubles to have two houses...One has always the book he needs in the other) and I will revert with data he brings.

You say that no one has proved that the items are treated and come not from Tadjikistan
I humbly disagree: the Russian one said that *no* pegmatite in Tadjikistan has been reported as giving heliodors. And he is reputed as a world expert. I think his word carries a weight.
Placing in other words, no one has proved that Zelatoya Vada exists 

You say that no one has the proof the goods are treated: maybe gossip, but in Europe is common knowledge that a professor of Sorbonne has seen the labo where they were irradiated
And after the article in Extra Lapis, I doubt anyone in Europe says that those are legit.

Even mine, the dealer who sold me said me privately that are known faked ones (when he knowed they were. Three years later I bought. He is completely reliable. And no, he is not Jordi)

>Further, I am unaware of the treatment that will turn beryls yellow. Heating erases the yellow color, so if they are treated then it has to be by some other process

The irradiation is a well known one
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001IW9S2U/ref=nosim/?tag=nextag-jewelry-delta-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B001IW9S2U&linkCode=asn

>Several Russian geologist are said to have claimed that these crystals are not from Tajikistan.

Yes, one of them the recognized specialist in pegmatites in such part of world.
That is all in Extra Lapis Beryl.

>The ones I am referring to are prismatic, very transparent and beautiful. Rarely they are with albite matrix.

Those are the Pakistani ones, in my opinion (and so in Lapis, as far as I understand)
Mine is in albite. And it looks like a Paki aqua (disguised in yellow  )

Others from a different locality are an ugly brownish orange and the matrix is usually muscovite which looks damaged. They are also flattened, or squat, not elongated like the other ones.

Those are those from China (Chun Zou, Hunan, China, if I do not remember bad)

Personally, I could say that

-Before I bought mine, there is Mineralogical Record where the find is explained. I could dig on my collection, but probably you have more readily at mind than I.
In the photos and description, the lot photographed could be seen as a mixture of aquamarines and,say, heliodors.

-Mine is like a Pakistani one (with a matrix of albite)

-I have seen others that are like the chinese goshenite/aquamarine, with even the muscovite.

-It has been said that they get this color by irradiation.

Here is an article from Kazajstan to produce golden beryl
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TJN-47XFMNT-1S&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F2003&_alid=821236001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=5315&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0c376db2541964c73e61cf47e09595f8

Not by irradiation, but with a iron diffusing method. Interesting enough.

Then, if you take a look at this page, you will see a lot of golden beryls that is disclosed that they were irradiated:
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:0uUiJgnuOE4J:www.nextag.com/Others--a-Jewelry%2BGemstone-_-Beryl--zz2702410zB4z5---html+nextag.com+golden+beryl&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=es

-Yes, they fade on heating.
But as you see, seems that all do

http://www.geo.utexas.edu/courses/347k/redesign/gem_notes/Beryl/beryl_triple_frame.htm

By the way, in Wikipedia, there is a photo of a golden beryl with the name :Synthetic golden bery from Tadjikistan”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl
(all links normalized by Jordi)

All in all, I really beleive that they are beyond doubt that are not naturals.
And I begin to be aware of those etched brasilian ones that looks like the yellow ones from the etched aquas from Brasil


With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Nov 09, 2008 22:05    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

The Extra Lapis article is quite instructive on this matter. If I remember correctly, the author
inadvertantly contributed the location, when viewing specimens at a dealer who didn't
have any locality data. But those details are in the article.

Back in 1999 or 2000 I was looking in Tucson for these heliodor specimens. None of the
dealers in any of the hotel shows had any of them. However, there was a German guy in
the tent city across Interstate 10, who had many of them. The word was already out as to whether these were genuine. This guy had an article posted in his area denying that they
were irradiated. He had pictures purportedly taken by Jeff Scovil showing specimens
before and after irradiation, "proving" that these heliodors couldn't be due to this process.

The next day I was browsing in a Paki/Afghani dealer's hotel room. I asked him if he had any of the heliodors. He said that those were fakes. He said that there was a German guy
that was buying up goshenite specimens from the Pakis and Afghanis very cheaply. That
this German guy had some machine that cost 50,000 or 100,000 USD. ( I can't remember anymore which anymore). That he was bragging that he was making a lot of money selling these specimens as authentic.

The dealer said the process was "sintering". I think that this is some sort of surface
treatment, but those of you who know more of this can correct me.

Anyway, I did buy a modest specimen from the German, assuming it was fake, and
the subsequent discussion with the Afghani dealer confirmed it for me.

Paul
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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2008 01:51    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Good morning, Parfaitelumiere

Well, in case to turn yellow a poor aqua (see, the deep blue are valuable; the light blues that come from Pakistan worth many more as collectable items than as cut stones), the reason is price.
A golden beryl or a heliodor, worths far more than an aqua, if cut
An heliodor as specimen solds for much more than an aqua. There are far less.

And yes, heating a greenish aqua, you turn it more bluish, cleaning the yellow overtones.
That is an oxidation of the iron, leeting th blue overtones.

But irradiating, you turn the goshenites and aquas to yellow.
Place the irradiation to one part of the crystal, and you will get color zoned.
Irradiation beams could be focused, so, no wonder.

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2008 10:59    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

for some time like these Heliodore have been seeing here in pakistan also.
my friends have already post their opinions , links and some useful great sources to prove that these heliodore are from Tajikistan or not , or these are treated or not.i can't say anything but at least surely that these (heliodore /goshenites) are not from pakistan nor from afghanistan. believed here to be from china.
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PostPosted: Feb 20, 2009 06:17    Post subject: Re: hello!What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

I've recently seen some purpotedly Tajik Heliodor on the web, but these are said to come from the Gelte Krustel mine, is it the same one than Zelatoya Vada ?

I have seen some specimen offered on sale which looked a very lot like Chumar Bakhoor beryl, with Muscovite & even fluorite ! But the color is of a pee-ish greensih yellow. Nothing like those pictured in Lapis.

Isn't there a way to disclose if they are treated or not ? IF so the simplest thing would be that some one does so as we know.

I thought it was possible to track the origin of this or that mineral through their isotope ratios (or something like that), that are specific to the localities they come from. I mean, it's possible to track gold, why not a tajik heliodor ?

I've not been to Tajikistan, only flew over it and this is all mountains, mountains everywhere, with unsupposed resources. I've been Pakistan quite a few times, roaming the mountains, and honestly the immense mineral wealth that we all know about comes out of only a handfull of valleys and mountains. The possibilities are simply unlimited, contrary to what we know. There's for instance in Pakistan NWFP an aquamarine mine producing the most extraordinary blue color, truly gobsmacking material, but it remains largely unknown and as a matter of fact I've never seen any material from there being offered on the net in the past 5 years. It's something I've never understood... why ?
Sometime it's right under our nose and we can't see it, so what about the hidden ?!
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PostPosted: Aug 01, 2011 11:51    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Two years later... are there new informations about the Tajikistan heliodors? is it already sure that are they a fake?
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PostPosted: Aug 01, 2011 14:33    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

As far as I know they still remain a mystery. No one has proven where they come from, no one has identified the person or persons who are allegedly treating them, and no one has located a pegmatite in Tajikistan that is the proven source. It is strange that after so many years, this mystery continues.

In my view they are unique in habit, quite unlike those from Pakistan and I have also not seen any from China with this habit, which is quite distinct.

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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2011 15:06    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Thanks John. It is a strange case. Maybe could it be possible to use a geiger counter for to detect residual radioactivity in a suspicious heliodor?
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2011 15:44    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

WHAT ABOUT.....
In Tucson 1990 or 1991 one Californian dealer in the Executive Inn, following room used by Daniel Trichillo on his first Tucson exhibit....had a room full of loose crystals on trays from "Pakistan! and many matrix specimens as well, most of them from Chumar Bakhoor on muscovite. I bought two different single crystals to test.

The seller, who I had never seen before was first presenting them as genuine, natural heliodores from PAKISTAN !!! I simply told him these are probably from Chumar Bakhoor and those from Shigar area.

You can take a colorless or very light blue beryl with little attraction and turn yellow to orangish/yellow, mostly with a spectrum of shades screaming treated! by exposing them to high energy particles of various types and from various sources.

At this time a Californian nuclear engineer had since several years used linear accelerators for treating various gem rough and specimens (making bi color tourmalines!)

I put the two crystals each in an underground bunker specially designed to measure minute quantities of radioactivity (by stopping radioactivity from cosmos and earth) and extremely pure materials inside (now impossible to get due to all nuclear weapons tests).

These two crystals showed only natural radioactivity confirming my suspicion they had been treated in a linear accelerator.

SO NO, if treated by similar method which is very likely, they will not show any induced radioactivity. I would however suspect the IR spectra to be somewhat different on some peak, although I have never tested it. If a persons eyes can see it from 100 feet away (I did in Tucson, two crystals in a female Ohio collectors case), this should be possible.

Up to date there is no confirmation whatsoever from any geologist in Tadzhikistan of any such find although pegmatites there carry various shades of primarily short prismatic alcali rich beryls.

Two Jugoslavian dealers carried chunks of irradiated beryl already in the 1980s at St Marie aux MInes show, in Munchen and brough also to the USA.

I wonder if the US customs has any indication during thes eyears of the import of "Heliodor from Tadzjikistan". I would expect not! but after this note perhaps will :)


I think the following year, this guy was gone from the Executive Inn and Rob Lavinsky was selling many "Heliodors" from "Tadzhikistan", that was his first big business. I think it was laso he who wrote an article in Mineral News about them.

Dimitrij Belakovski of the Fersman Museum has written an article in extra Lapis in the Beryl Issue, and I think he believed that he may have been the initiation of the idea of Tadzhikistan as "locality".

No matter what mineral from where... if you think it is not what it was sold as, simply give it back to the dealer and get your monmey baclk! If all people would do that it woudl soon be not very lucrative to sell some doubtful or suspicious specimens.

I bought these two crystals of first denied treated, then after 45 minutes discussions, dconfirmed treatment only for testing and reference.

There are many examples of various treatments of minerals, or pure incorrect information as well (synthetic specimens beeing sold as natural). I have compared a well known top US collector with my own buys and in every case we have made our own conclusions independently which are in full agreement when it comes to several larger lots of questionable materials.

I know of one case where I was suspicious for the reason that my contacts in a certain area never had mentioned a find, which turned out to be tru when I later asked them! I just could not understand how such an important find would have been missed to be mentioned, but they simply did not realize its importance!
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2011 07:50    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Good evening, Peter, Mr. White, JMiguel, list

Peter: thanks a lot for disclosing that seller agreed that were irradiated!

I am the sad owner of one, I paid a lot (It was one of the first few in matrix.... :-)), bought at the time that MR reported it.
And, disagreeing with Mr. John Sampson White, to my eyes, is like one of the multiples aquas from Pakistan (a bad one, should be said.....)...

And JMiguel, as Peter confirmed, irradiation could not be seen in this case. Just because natural heliodors are irradiated by nature..... :-) So, would be identical....just not natural. I would suggest to behave as Peter said: return it and get your money back.

I am very sorry, but for me it is not a mistery. It is just a guy that made a lot of money. Like the chinese that mounted many, many cinnabars.....
Or the one that made a lot of italian sulphurs, or....

In all basket of apples, there are always some rotten ones....

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2011 09:18    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

As I have written before, there are two distinctly different types of heliodor that are suspected of being irradiated. They are very different in habit. One type is squat and with muscovite and is a orangey yellow, not attractive at all. The others are mostly without matrix, are all exactly the same habit, which is quite different from most aquas from Pakistan or China, and they are a beautiful yellow color. Even as likely irradiated, I like them and I have one in my collection. I have also sold quite a few and I have always disclosed the fact that many people consider them treated. All of my customers bought them anyway and they are happy to have them. Those that I have bought and either kept or sold, I knew of their questionable history, but I bought them just the same. I have no regrets.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2011 09:52    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Dear Mr. John White

I agree completely with you that those heliodors, or whatever they are, have two distinct habits.
I was talking about the prismatic, with attractive yellow color.
And, as you say, those are rarely sold in matrix. For that I stress that I bought one of the fews in matrix and I paid what I paid several years ago, in October 1997 to be precise.
Many water have rained from then....

But I am lost when you say that habit of prismatics are different of those from Pakistan

If I take a look at the matrixless one in your article in R&M that you uploaded and I take a look at the paki aqua that is in the home page of beryl in mindat, I saw same habit.
http://www.mindat.org/min-819.html

If Jordi and you let me, I could upload the composite that i did with two images.
Evidently, being both copyrighted, I should ask for permission.

I do not dispute that they are nice (they are), and I am not searching for a guilty one.
I am a friend of the dealer who sold me my piece. I have never asked him for my money back.

Just trying to spread what is placed clear and loud in Extra Lapis, that has been confirmed by Peter.

With best wishes

Lluís

P.D.: at the end, those trick just harm the hobby...
If pieces are faked, people refrains from buying.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2011 10:04    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

" There are two distinctly different types of heliodor that are suspected of being irradiated".
John: What kind of heliodor is the one in the pics? it is said it is from Zayadayawata. Tajikistan.



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Zayadayawata. Tajikistan???
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Zayadayawata. Tajikistan??
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2011 10:13    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

the color is more yelow than the pics. It is very yellow.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2011 10:16    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

I would say that this is the prismatic, not squat, type with the attractive color, and this guess is supported by what appears to be albite attached to the prism faces. The pyramid faces of the one in the photos are not quite as well developed as is common, but this is indeed the habit.

It is true, Iluis, that one can find some Pakistan aquas with a similar habit, but I have never seen a large lot of Pakistan aquas with the habit of the heliodors, and I have looked long and hard for it.

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