FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[James Catmur]

Saw this news story and thought of our community? Could it ever happen to a mineral dealer? Should they worry about this? Should we worry when we go out and collect specimens?

US fossils dealer jailed for dinosaur smuggling:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27691816

James

[vic rzonca]

I'm almost afraid to pipe up for fear of lighting a fire. Or looking stupid. I think the short answer is "yes", I'm sure there is a legal mechanism working right now to stop and punish poachers and plunderers. I also think this goes to a topic near and dear to all pragmatic collectors, outlaw collecting. Or looked at in another way, the preservation of our mineral heritage for all to learn from and take pleasure in. Rhetorically, who owns our heritage? We do. Who are we? I'm not sure what the perpetrator's motives were in this case, but, are there cases where the motive's could seen as "pure scientific altruism" (not sure if that describes it), where if no action were taken we lose some part of a body of knowledge or something beautiful? Morals are such a nuisance. Who's do we follow? More rhetoric. I will apologize ahead of time if I offend anyone's sensibilities. Vic

[bob kerr]

There's definitely laws that mineral collectors and dealers can run across but I don't think the law in question here applies to minerals - I think fossils fall into the "antiquity" category whereas minerals do not.

Recall a few years ago - the smokey bear claim smokey quartz was apparently on wilderness land in NM and a number of dealers and collectors were arrested and fined. again, this is a different law.

bob

[vic rzonca]

James, I missed the point of the thread. "Could this happen to a dealer?". Went off on a tangent, sorry.


Receiving stolen goods? Pretty sure that amounts to billable hours for some barrister.
Vic

[alfredo]

If we stick to the topic of the original news story (illegal smuggling of prohibited article into the USA), and don't go wandering all over the legal map on unrelated issues (collecting in national parks, trespassing on private property, etc, etc...)...

What happened in the case of the Mongolian dinosaur was the USA helping Mongolia retrieve Mongolian patrimony that had been illegally (by mongolian law) exported to the USA. Yes, the USA now helps enforce other countries' laws for them (which was not always the case). Similar cases have been seen when the USA prosecuted dealers in the USA who had meteorites from Argentina, after Argentina complained to the USA that the dealer had no permission to export them from Argentina. Owning or dealing in meteorites is not illegal in the USA, so here again you have a case of the USA helping enforce another country's laws, even when the action was not illegal in the USA itself!

So, specifically regarding minerals, rather than fossils or meteorites, yes, a dealer could be arrested in the USA if they bring minerals that were exported illegally from any other country.

Dealers can also run afoul of U.S. Customs regulations if they bring in ANY collectibles without reporting them to Customs on entry. Mineral specimens are exempt from duties on entry to the USA (ie: the USA, unlike many other countries, charges zero import tax on mineral specimens, regardless of value), so some dealers think this means they don't need to be reported. Wrong! Your goods can be confiscated and you can be prosecuted if you bring in mineral specimens without reporting them. The reporting requirement varies a bit depending on the purpose: If a collector is bringing in a specimen(s) for his/her private collection, then it only needs to be declared on entry to the USA if the value exceeds the limit for personal effects purchased abroad ($1,000 or $800? - I don't remember); but if a dealer is bringing in items for resale, then one has to tick the "yes" box where it asks if you're bringing in merchandise, regardless of the value.

[Pierre Joubert]

'Could it ever happen to a mineral dealer? Should they worry about this? Should we worry when we go out and collect specimens?'

Alfredo, this is very much part of the topic.

[Peter Megaw]

To the original thrust of the thread. It has already happened to mineral dealers! About 10 years ago, either BHP or RTZ Australia raised hell about specimens being stolen from their mines and they got pieces confiscated internationally and some folks spent an evening in the gray-bar hotel at government expense. None got prison terms.

The fossil story is more complicated than indicated in the newspaper stories too.



Alfredo is very much correct about US Customs and minerals...and doing things right is easy.

1. 800 dollars is the standard personal exemption for importation of goods for personal use.

2. There is NO exemption for importation of commercial goods...ALL are subject to declaration, regardless of whether import duty is due.

3. Unimproved mineral specimens and cutting rough are duty free regardless of amount imported. (Do yourself a favor...locate and jot down the importation code for specimens, this can greatly speed up your transit through Customs).

Here's where it helps to know the ropes

A. For both personal and commercial importation...if the total value is under $2,500 you can file what is called an "informal entry" , which does not require a customs bond and can be cleared on the spot. You simply fill out a CBP Form 3461, affix an invoice showing the value and source of what you're importing, and pay a $2, 6 or 9 fee depending on arcane rules no-one understands. Some ports of entry will charge you a couple dollars to fill out the form. You hand over the papers and they inspect and pass you through.

B. A formal entry requires a broker, more time and higher fees ...but there is still no duty due.

C. In either case make sure you account for your imported materials as you sell them. The Customs department sends a copy of your importation to the Treasury department to make sure taxes due from commercial activity are eventually paid. It is not uncommon to get a letter 2 years down the road from the IRS asking you to document what you did with what you imported.

Googling "informal USA customs entry" gets you linked to a website with all the details and forms ready to print out

[Rei]

[Riccardo Modanesi]

Hi to everyody!
I can point out the Italian law about. Of course if you go to national parks, in particular with explosives or too haevy hammers or cesels, you are fined or put in jail. Then there are protected sites like archaeological ones (UNESCO property sometime), where even picking stones up is strictly forbidden. Fossils as well are considered property of the Italian state, but if you go toany fossil deposit and pick a small fossil up without using tools, nothing will happen to you. Rather you have to be careful when you are asked anything by customs controllers at the border or at the airport. In Mindat there is an article whose title is "Defending The Right Of Collectors", I commented this article as well. But the problem is laws are made by non-expert people and therefore they contain mistakes or they are incomplete.
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.