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Milpillas Azurite - fake specimen
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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2012 12:46    Post subject: Milpillas Azurite - fake specimen  

Hello all,

I'm pretty new to the FMF boards but not to mineral collecting. I've been reading some of the great posts on here for a while and decided it was time to post a thread and ask a few questions. It seems there are some really knowledgeable people on here.

Here is a specimen from my personal collection of milpillas minerals. I've been a big fan ever since saw my first piece back in 2009.
I am just curious if any of you have seen specimens from this locality with this type of lite green malachite cementing together larger chunks of azurite crystals and malachite pseudomorphs? I have one other piece that has a vein of this lite colored malachite (at least that's what I think it is) running through a small crack across the piece.
In this piece the thing that amazes me is the two small crystals that project out the front and are held by this material. I have over 700 specimens from this mine but this one is by far the most unique IMO.



IMG_4820.jpg
 Description:
Azurite/Malachite
Milpillas Mine, Cananea Mexico
6"x8"x5"
 Viewed:  46350 Time(s)

IMG_4820.jpg



7606080196_5611ff305f_b.jpg
 Description:
Azurite/Malachite
Milpillas Mine, Cananea Mexico
6"x8"x5"
 Viewed:  46406 Time(s)

7606080196_5611ff305f_b.jpg


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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2012 12:51    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Here is one more photo of the two little floater azurites held on by this green malachite(?) cement.


7606089358_39cdccd5e9_b.jpg
 Description:
Azurite/Malachite
Milpillas Mine, Cananea Mexico
6"x8"x5"
 Viewed:  46413 Time(s)

7606089358_39cdccd5e9_b.jpg


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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2012 14:11    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

I re read the post and I think I was unclear that I actually had a question. I am trying to determine if that lite green stuff is actually malachite or some other mineral??
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Peter Megaw
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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2012 15:02    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Looks to me like it needs more analysis...
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marvsT/Nminerals




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PostPosted: Oct 27, 2012 14:13    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Perhaps the teal colored mineral is chrysocolla. There is a photo on mindat.org (Photo ID: 145140) of azurite from the Milpillas Mine with what is probably chrysocolla and another copper silicate, plancheite.
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lluis




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PostPosted: Oct 27, 2012 15:07    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Good evening

I think like marvsT, looks like crisocolla to my eyes
But as Peter said, without an analysis, all are guesses (more or less educated)

With best wishes

Lluís
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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Oct 29, 2012 13:27    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Thanks for the input. A friend also thought I might be CU sulfate of some sort. That's the great thing about the material from this locality. You never know what accessory minerals you might see.
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Peter Megaw
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PostPosted: Oct 29, 2012 14:08    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Shattuckite and plancheite have both been indentified at Milpillas and their colors seem closer to this than chrysocolla. It is also possible that this is a new species for Milpillas, so it looks worth investigation.

I am not clear from the photos whether the species in question is on top of the pseudos or below?



Milpillas Mal ps az on plancheite web.jpg
 Description:
malachite ps azurite with plancheite
Milpillas Mine, Quitaca, Sonora, Mexico
small cabinet
Peter Megaw specimen, Jeff Scovil photo
 Viewed:  46123 Time(s)

Milpillas Mal ps az on plancheite web.jpg



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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Oct 29, 2012 15:01    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

The species I am questioning lays on top and in between the pseudos and also serves as an attachment point for the two nice azurite crystals sticking out of the front of this piece.

Here is the only other piece I have which exhibits this same species. It fills the crack in the host rock on which the azurite crystals sit. The crack goes all the way around the back and this new mineral fills it the whole way around.



6888255459_5d6cd0e5da_b.jpg
 Description:
Azurite crystals on matrix
Milpillas Mine, Cananea Mexico
4"x3"x3"
 Viewed:  46047 Time(s)

6888255459_5d6cd0e5da_b.jpg


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Peter Megaw
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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2012 15:49    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

In Mexico last week I was offered a small lot of Milpillas material with two pieces showing remarkably similar looking teal colored stuff... so I took the opportunity to try to solve the mystery.

Unfortunately, it was easy to do as it was immediately apparent that the specimens were assembled fakes with ground up malachite mixed into the glue to make that wierd teal colored filling. Not sure if it's Elmer's or some more chemically based glue, but I would guess that swabbing the "malachite" with a Q-tip soaked in either water, alcohol or acetone will instantly impart a green color to the cotton. I'd follow that water-alcohol-acetone progression to eliminate the most obvious glues first and minimize exposure to acetone.

I actually considered buying one sample to extract a decent component but the seller did not want to admit it was a fake and held out for a "real" price.

Looking at these pictures it looks like several pieces were cobbled together with this stuff, so you might be able to disaggregate it and rescue a bit or two

Caveat emptor...again!

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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Nov 23, 2012 17:54    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

What do u think it's worth in parts? 3 main pieces with no visible damage plus the two little singles on front.
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PostPosted: Nov 23, 2012 18:37    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

This forum does not do values.

john

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Peter Megaw
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PostPosted: Nov 23, 2012 19:29    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Echo John: Its only value now is as a fake....although there are some fake collectors out there (double entendre intended) most would argue its value is very low, so the parts might be worth more than the whole. I guess i'd take a hard look at each part and see how it might stand on its own
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Cascavel1




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PostPosted: Nov 23, 2012 20:47    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Thanks guys. Sorry I asked about values.
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Pierre Joubert




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PostPosted: Nov 24, 2012 03:33    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

I follow this discussion and If my understanding is correct, the lovely specimens displayed by Cascavel are fakes?! Is my assumption correct?
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PostPosted: Nov 24, 2012 09:12    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Just the big one...the light green, wierd looking "malachite" is the cement used to patch several pieces together. Out of thousands of specimens from Milpillas I have seen just this one and two more. Anyone else out there seen any of them?
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PostPosted: Nov 24, 2012 09:46    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

The second piece I posted also has that same malachite cement used to fill the crack in the matrix rock. I believe it was used for aesthetic purposes rather than anything else. It came from a different source and was purchased a while before the big piece. The creator may be the same person though.
The good news on the big piece is that I can return it for a full refund although I do actually admire the work that went into it but don't support the practice of deception.
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PostPosted: Nov 24, 2012 13:37    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

Cascavel1 wrote:
What do u think it's worth in parts? 3 main pieces with no visible damage plus the two little singles on front.


I can understand your question. You would like to assess the damage. Some people have no shame!

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PostPosted: Nov 24, 2012 17:50    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

I would have posed it differently had I been aware of the forum policy. Guess I should read the terms of service.
I guess in some sense I admire the work that went into making it look so eye appealing.
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PostPosted: Nov 24, 2012 19:17    Post subject: Re: Milpillas Azurite specimen  

If you don't have a copy...get a hold of Sinkankis's "Gem and Mineral Databook" (long out of print so I am not promoting commerce here). It has an excellent chapter on fakes and what to look for. Things have gotten a LOT more sophisticated with new cements, fillers etc...but the kind of constructed fake you've got is well covered. He has some good tips for things that should twig you to the fact that something is wrong.

There is also a good article on more sophisticated fakes in Mineralogical Record perhaps 20 years ago...and an excellent edition of "The Vug" devoted to the subject too.

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