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Westmorland
  
  Index -> Improving the FMF Data Base of localities
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Mike Wood




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PostPosted: Jun 05, 2015 11:09    Post subject: Westmorland  

Hi Tobi, a nice collection of specimens you have there - > Collection of Tobi
Just a couple of things I would like to point out - the locality details on the Smallcleugh galena and the last one, the Hilton fluorite - the name 'Westmorland' is now defunct. It is an old county name that was changed in the 1970's, when the new county of 'Cumbria' was created; with the loss of Westmorland, Cumberland, and the northern part of Lancashire!
Cheers, Mike

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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Jun 05, 2015 11:23    Post subject: Re: Collection of Tobi  

Mike Wood wrote:
....the name 'Westmorland' is now defunct. It is an old county name that was changed in the 1970's, when the new county of 'Cumbria' was created; with the loss of Westmorland, Cumberland, and the northern part of Lancashire!
Cheers, Mike

Mike,

Tobi is not responsible for the name Westmorland; the name was given automatically by our database of localities. James recently revised all of our English localities. He will answer you about the "Westmorland" name.

To know more about the FMF Data Base of localities please use: New Data Base of localities within the FMF!

Cheers

Jordi
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James
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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 08:50    Post subject: Westmorland  

Westmorland is a former region (historical county) in England that no longer exists as it became part of Cumbria in 1974. So many old labels may give a locality in Westmorland and not mention Cumbria. I have therefore included 'Westmorland' in some of the localities in Cumbria to help people find out that the locality is now part of Cumbria.

So should we include it and if we should, in what format? 'Westmorland', '(Westmorland)' or nothing?

Thoughts welcome (this will also apply to other UK localities that have moved county or where the county name has changed, such as Cumberland and Cumbria)
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Pete Richards
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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 09:09    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

I think this could be very useful for those who do not know the local history. Perhaps even more useful if the reason for parentheses is explicit, e.g. "(formerly Westmorland), Cumbria"
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Philip G




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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 14:30    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Hi,

As Mike rightly says, 'Westmorland' is now defunct and has little meaning in the modern day. My own preference would be to omit it altogether as it is very easy to check old boundaries with a simple Wikipedia internet search if so desired. I do not see any real advantage in complicating location details simply to cater for old North England labels, which to be honest, are very often inaccurate and misleading anyway.

Perhaps best to keep it simple and accurate and just give these locations modern up-to-date details. The old labels will still be retained with the specimens and so the old historic meanings will still be preserved anyway.

Phil (in the old North Lancashire/Westmorland border area)
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GneissWare




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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 15:04    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

I agree with Pete, a parenthetical reference would be helpful. This also applies to localities like Zimbabwe (ex. Rhodesia).
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colin robinson




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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 15:53    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Worth pointing out as well that Smallcleugh mine was never in Westmorland but in Cumberland, now Cumbria.
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 16:05    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

The Mindat policy is to maintain these defunct names in brackets and I like the idea. I agree with them that historical names like Westmorland should be saved in some way because, as other FMFers already pointed out, many times defunct names form part of the label and if someone, not expert in this geographical area, has a label just with the name "Westmorland" (as it happens frequently in the old collections ;-) it could be confusing if Westmorland can't be found anywhere.

So, logically, I believe that the suggestion of Peter Richards: "(formerly Westmorland), Cumbria" is perfect ;-)
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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 22:12    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

I do like the (former ......) construct for these types of localities. So I will go for that when I come across them or update them.

Smallcleugh and Alston Moor should not be in (former Westmorland) so let me check that too. It may be an old mistake.
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PostPosted: Jun 08, 2015 23:33    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

This discussion raises another doubt in my mind.

Many (but not all) of the localities in this area mention the 'North Pennines', which I think has been inherited from Mindat. The North Pennines is (to help non-locals understand) an area of outstanding natural beauty (AONB) and is not a true region. I have kept it so far but it can be a bit confusing as it includes parts of various counties, but not all of them.

So a plea for help from my fellow Brits - keep it or remove it, or is this another case of changing it to, say, '(part of the North Penines AONB)'? Your opinion please.

(if you are really interested or want to know more to plan your next trip to the UK why not have a look at: http://www.northpennines.org.uk/Lists/DocumentLibrary/Attachments/405//NorthPenninesPocketGuide2014-15.pdf)
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Jun 09, 2015 02:29    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

James - you are mistaken. The North Pennine Mountains (or "North Pennines") are a distinct geographic and geological province encompassing parts of County Durham, North Yorkshire, Cumbria, and Northumberland. It is made up of two separate but related crustal blocks, the Alston block to the north and the Askrigg block to the south, in North Yorkshire. The geology of the region is characterized by a sequence of cyclothemic sediments of carboniferous age overlying a basement of paleozoic metamorphic and granitic rocks. Ore deposits throughout the region are of the Mississippi Valley low temperature hydrothermal type. A detailed description of the geology can be found in K. C. Dunham's 2-volume "Geology of the North Pennine Orefield" published by the British Geological Survey.

The "North Pennine AONB" is a recent cultural/political designation that covers only a small portion of the North Pennine Mountains, specifically within Co. Durham. The purpose of this was to promote conservation and tourism in a depressed rural area where the economy was formerly dominated by mining and quarrying.

Identifying a specimen as coming from the "North Pennines" will let one know the geological setting of the deposit that produced the specimen, where-as a political designation such as "Durham" or "Cumbria" will not.

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Jesse
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Riccardo Modanesi




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PostPosted: Jun 09, 2015 03:50    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Hi to everybody! Hi Jordi!
We can discuss all the time about historical and current names of localities, as well as for different language versions of localities. For example: Strzegom or Striegau? Bolzano or Bozen? Koper or Capodistria? Enna or Castrogiovanni? Agrigento or Girgenti? I think an historical memory of localities should be recognized at least for one reason: in historical books and collections (including mineralogy ones), ancient and historical names are reported, nobody could imagine one day the name of this or that place would have changed and/or the nation the locality belonged to would have lost a war and the locality would belong to another nation!
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

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PostPosted: Jun 09, 2015 08:21    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Thanks Jesse - I think you could have shown why I am concerned. 'North Pennines' has many meanings so we need to use it carefully. It could mean the AONB, which is what one first finds on the web, it could mean just the Alston Block (again on the web one can find that definition) or the combined Alston+Askrigg Blocks as you say. So it means something different to different people and maybe for that reason we should drop it?

By the way the North Pennines AONB includes parts of County Durham, Northumberland, North Yorkshire, and Cumbria. So it is close, but not identical to your North Pennines. All very confusing.

Thoughts welcome everyone.
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Jun 09, 2015 09:14    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Perhaps best to use the full name, "North Pennines Mountains" or Dunham's term, "North Pennine Orefield" to make the distinction.
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colin robinson




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PostPosted: Jun 09, 2015 16:25    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Please forget 'North Pennines' and stick to local government boundaries and place names as they appear on O.S. maps. At least Cumberland and Westmorland had clearly defined boundaries whereas North Pennines is so vague as to be meaningless. If you don't know where Weardale is then adding North Pennines won't further your knowledge.

It all reminds me of that game we played as children where we'd just keep adding things to our address. ie. Europe, the Earth, the Solar System, The Galaxy.....and so on.

Oh, and Jesse, thanks for updating the status of the North Pennines to mountains. Up here we just call them fells ;-)
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Philip G




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PostPosted: Jun 10, 2015 06:27    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

James,

If you do decide to go down the (formerly Westmorland) route then its also best to remember the old Lancashire/Cumberland/Westmorland boundaries, plus the old Yorkshire/Co. Durham boundaries plus the still 'fluid' Lancashire/Yorkshire boundaries (still being debated today) .. all of which have seen changes and all of which contain relevant mines or workings (many not listed on the Mindat database but with specimens available in the past or present day).

The previous north Lancashire boundaries extended up into the centre of modern-day Lakeland and included some major iron ore and copper mining districts.

Phil (still in north Lancashire .. i think) :)
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PostPosted: Jun 10, 2015 07:43    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Phil

That really makes me think that we should drop old county boundaries and names, as keeping track of the moves is really hard.

Colin

I think you are right as it (North Pennines) just gets confusing too
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PostPosted: Jun 11, 2015 05:37    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

On the other hand, the North Pennines Orefield does not change its boundaries at the whim of politicians. Anyone familiar with the geology of the region will know exactly what it means, regardless of how the counties are drawn.
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PostPosted: Jun 11, 2015 08:20    Post subject: Re: Westmorland  

Perfect Jesse - done, and hopefully now clear to people who do not know about the orefield
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