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It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor
  
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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 00:48    Post subject: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Despite my uttermost attention to handling my specimens carefully, I dropped the green fluorite I just got from the Springfield Show onto the carpeted floor from a few feet high.

I believe the specimen hit its bottom section first since it is the heaviest (and has raw fluorite), and then bounced somewhat and landed on of the crystal sides.

I inspected it and do not notice any damage. I looked at the pics I had taken and I do not notice anything out of place.

My question is it possible that the mineral specimen is unscathed by the accident? Or is there likely damage somewhere on the specimen? The carpet floor is not very hard like a wooden or concrete but I am still worried that my once undamaged specimen is now damaged.
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 10:20    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

If you can't see damage there probably isn't any...count yourself lucky. Everyone gets butterfingers eventually so thank the mineral gods and remember that handling things over a forgiving surface saved your bacon (fluorite) this time...
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 11:05    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

My take on this is that ALL mineral specimens, without exception, are damaged. One cannot dig a specimen out of the ground without damaging the edges and surfaces to some extent. (And stop snickering that my field collecting techniques are deficient, ha ha ;))

The question is only whether the damage is sufficient to be disturbing or not, and each collector will have their own criteria for that. Can the damage be seen from inside a glass case from a meter away? Can it be seen from 25 cm away? Can the damage be noticed by a very myopic person like myself who looks at specimens from 8cm in front of their eyeballs? (I see damage that is not visible to people with normal vision.) Can it only be seen with a microscope?

And remember what the late Dr Fred Pough used to say: A damaged specimen is more educational, because you can see what type of cleavage or fracture the species has.
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 12:12    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

alfredo wrote:
My take on this is that ALL mineral specimens, without exception, are damaged. One cannot dig a specimen out of the ground without damaging the edges and surfaces to some extent. (And stop snickering that my field collecting techniques are deficient, ha ha ;))

The question is only whether the damage is sufficient to be disturbing or not, and each collector will have their own criteria for that. Can the damage be seen from inside a glass case from a meter away? Can it be seen from 25 cm away? Can the damage be noticed by a very myopic person like myself who looks at specimens from 8cm in front of their eyeballs? (I see damage that is not visible to people with normal vision.) Can it only be seen with a microscope?

And remember what the late Dr Fred Pough used to say: A damaged specimen is more educational, because you can see what type of cleavage or fracture the species has.


Well the bottom base of raw fluorite has contact damage but I do not consider it part of the crystals on top. Are you saying that listing a specimen being "pristine" and "no damage" as being dishonest?
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 13:00    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Casimir, It's not necessarily "dishonest". When a dealer says "No damage!", that's really shorthand for: "I did not notice any damage". Perhaps the damage is only microscopic and would not bother anyone at all. Or maybe the dealer is farsighted, or inattentive, or ignorant. (In the worst cases that I've seen, "no damage" phosphophyllites and vivianites, the dealer had mistaken a cleavage surface for a crystal face.)

My intention in this discussion is not to disparage any individual specimen, but rather to point out that the common question "Does it have any damage?" usually doesn't have a simple yes or no answer - there are infinite shades of grey.

Back to the specific case of your fluorite, you have illustrated very well why minerals should always be handled over a thick carpet rather than a concrete floor! At mineral shows I cover my table with a blanket. Fumbly fingers drop things too often, and although a wooden table surface is better than a concrete floor, the blanket is much better yet. But now you've given me an idea, Casimir... I'll carpet my table. Let the show organizers grumble, lol
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 16:25    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Alfredo....as long as it's not neon green shag carpeting from the 70s you should be OK
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2015 21:10    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

alfredo wrote:
Casimir, It's not necessarily "dishonest". When a dealer says "No damage!", that's really shorthand for: "I did not notice any damage". Perhaps the damage is only microscopic and would not bother anyone at all. Or maybe the dealer is farsighted, or inattentive, or ignorant. (In the worst cases that I've seen, "no damage" phosphophyllites and vivianites, the dealer had mistaken a cleavage surface for a crystal face.)

My intention in this discussion is not to disparage any individual specimen, but rather to point out that the common question "Does it have any damage?" usually doesn't have a simple yes or no answer - there are infinite shades of grey.

Back to the specific case of your fluorite, you have illustrated very well why minerals should always be handled over a thick carpet rather than a concrete floor! At mineral shows I cover my table with a blanket. Fumbly fingers drop things too often, and although a wooden table surface is better than a concrete floor, the blanket is much better yet. But now you've given me an idea, Casimir... I'll carpet my table. Let the show organizers grumble, lol


So even the condition is subjective in nature? I understand, and it would make sense that almost all specimens would have some sort of damage. Especially the more fragile minerals.

I am a bit surprised that when I visited a couple of shows this year, none of the dealers had any carpeting or another soft mat. With showing many high value specimens for sale in their displays, it is a matter of time before someone accidentally drops a valuable specimen. Then for sure it will have damage once it hits the hard surface.

It may not be visually appealing to have carpets in the show, but when some specimens are valued higher than some luxury cars I would have carpets if I was a dealer.

Now I need to find out how to clean my specimen since it landed on the carpet. A lot of sites say water and soft soap would work but I am a bit hesitant until I learn more.
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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 10:23    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Casimir, My initial response was in regards to new damage on your piece stemming from your case of dropsy...not whether the piece was undamaged to begin with. You had a lucky break there (pun intended) and yes, padding always makes sense. Dealer booths tend not to have carpeting more because of the often high extra cost of having it put in your booth. However, if you check most high-end dealers you will see carpeting, in part to protect against fumbles, but also because these folks have been in the game a whole and know that standing on a hard concrete floor for 2-5 days in a show can be murder on your back and carpeting can mitigate that. Simple business logic tells you that you, as the customer, are paying for that carpeting.


To get into the deeper part of this thread, arguably almost everything about a specimen...except the species and locality...is subjective. Aesthetics, tolerable damage and price are especially so and all feed into your personal collecting focus/philosophy. A trophy collector might reject a piece because of a tiny flaw that a locality or species collector might happily overlook. If your philosophy is that you collect for yourself (what interests you not some imagined group of others who will pass judgment on your pieces/you) and you are satisfied with a given piece, then all is good. The only time its perceived value will be externally judged (unless you get into formal competition at shows) is when you decide to sell or trade it...at which point how it stacks up against the taste/standards of others in the collecting community will become manifest. In the case of damage (at whatever scale) tastes have changed and collectors have become increasingly less tolerant over the last 30 years, but there remain differences between markets (US vs Europe vs China) and collector groups. Budget also plays a huge role here...perceived "perfect" specimens can cost an order of magnitude ore than an "identical" piece with visible damage. As your budget changes, your tolerance may also change.

Conversely, as tolerance of damage has diminished and prices have escalated (I am actively not saying "values" here), tolerance for repair and restoration has increased. Many trophy collectors now have no problem with filled cracks, rebuilt terminations and completely rebuilt specimens. This was almost unheard of 20 years ago, but is increasingly the norm, although many remain unwilling to have such restored pieces in their personal collections.

This means that had you broken your specimen when you dropped it, it would be acceptable in some circles for you to glue the pieces back together (as inobtrusivly as possible) to restore its former glory...as long as you noted ":repaired" on your label.

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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 10:34    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Peter Megaw wrote:
...Dealer booths tend not to have carpeting more because of the often high extra cost of having it put in your booth...

Add to this the fact that many medium / non-major Shows have not a carpet's service because it should be rented to an external company and, as it is easy to imagine, these companies wants a number of services to justify his weekends work ;-)
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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 10:36    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

As to cleaning...fluorite should do well in soap and water, or even a household spray cleaner like 409. (The spray might also dislodge dirt and other crud from the cracks or crannies where the crystals come together)

However, be aware that many fluorites (and other things) may have been oiled during preparation (see Jesse Fisher's article in Rocks and Minerals a few years back on cleaning and preparation of Rogerley fluorite). This is especially true of Chinese minerals which often have been given a bath in 30 weight at some point in their career.

The appearance of these pieces WILL suffer from strong detergents or cleaners since the oils will be removed. Unless you have the same type of oil to restore the luster (some of the oils used are sophisticated and expensive) the piece will not be the same after solvent cleaning. If you know, or suspect this to be the case, try cleaning the piece with plain water first to see if that is adequate. Loose crud will go away and the oils will be left unaffected.

Tolerance for oiling and other appearance enhancing techniques (vacuum treatments to make cracks and cleavage planes "disappear" for example) has also increased over the last 20 years and be aware that much material in the commercial end of the market as well as some of the top pieces has been subjected to these techniques. At the commercial end this is so routine it is seldom disclosed...at the higher end it is more likely to be, but it never hurts to ask.

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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 14:46    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Peter Megaw wrote:
...However, be aware that many fluorites (and other things) may have been oiled during preparation (see Jesse Fisher's article in Rocks and Minerals a few years back on cleaning and preparation of Rogerley fluorite). This is especially true of Chinese minerals which often have been given a bath in 30 weight at some point in their career...

Recommended reading: The intense oiling of Chinese minerals
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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 20:52    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Peter Megaw wrote:
Casimir, My initial response was in regards to new damage on your piece stemming from your case of dropsy...not whether the piece was undamaged to begin with. You had a lucky break there (pun intended) and yes, padding always makes sense. Dealer booths tend not to have carpeting more because of the often high extra cost of having it put in your booth. However, if you check most high-end dealers you will see carpeting, in part to protect against fumbles, but also because these folks have been in the game a whole and know that standing on a hard concrete floor for 2-5 days in a show can be murder on your back and carpeting can mitigate that. Simple business logic tells you that you, as the customer, are paying for that carpeting.


To get into the deeper part of this thread, arguably almost everything about a specimen...except the species and locality...is subjective. Aesthetics, tolerable damage and price are especially so and all feed into your personal collecting focus/philosophy. A trophy collector might reject a piece because of a tiny flaw that a locality or species collector might happily overlook. If your philosophy is that you collect for yourself (what interests you not some imagined group of others who will pass judgment on your pieces/you) and you are satisfied with a given piece, then all is good. The only time its perceived value will be externally judged (unless you get into formal competition at shows) is when you decide to sell or trade it...at which point how it stacks up against the taste/standards of others in the collecting community will become manifest. In the case of damage (at whatever scale) tastes have changed and collectors have become increasingly less tolerant over the last 30 years, but there remain differences between markets (US vs Europe vs China) and collector groups. Budget also plays a huge role here...perceived "perfect" specimens can cost an order of magnitude ore than an "identical" piece with visible damage. As your budget changes, your tolerance may also change.

Conversely, as tolerance of damage has diminished and prices have escalated (I am actively not saying "values" here), tolerance for repair and restoration has increased. Many trophy collectors now have no problem with filled cracks, rebuilt terminations and completely rebuilt specimens. This was almost unheard of 20 years ago, but is increasingly the norm, although many remain unwilling to have such restored pieces in their personal collections.

This means that had you broken your specimen when you dropped it, it would be acceptable in some circles for you to glue the pieces back together (as inobtrusivly as possible) to restore its former glory...as long as you noted ":repaired" on your label.


I see. To be honest I have received conflicting advice in regards to buying specimens online: one camp advises to never accept any damage whatsoever on a specimen, and the other is more lax about its standards. For myself I of course would prefer specimens that have as little damage as possible, and could be considered "pristine" or "no damage". I am one who pays attention to the details, and if there is a noticeable spot of damage, I would focus in on it.

So when I shop online and in shows, I look for "no damage" and "pristine" listings. I even ask dealers on their websites about the condition of specimens that do not have the condition listed in the description.

Maybe I am being picky but I do not have the vast budget for the high-end specimens. I want to make my money "count" so to speak.

As for repaired specimens, I am interested in acquiring a Pyrite from Navajun, Spain. Although I prefer such a specimen not to be repaired, I would accept repairs for one since these crystals naturally fall off from the soft matrix. I just want no damage along the corners and edges of the crystal.
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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 20:55    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Peter Megaw wrote:
As to cleaning...fluorite should do well in soap and water, or even a household spray cleaner like 409. (The spray might also dislodge dirt and other crud from the cracks or crannies where the crystals come together)

However, be aware that many fluorites (and other things) may have been oiled during preparation (see Jesse Fisher's article in Rocks and Minerals a few years back on cleaning and preparation of Rogerley fluorite). This is especially true of Chinese minerals which often have been given a bath in 30 weight at some point in their career.

The appearance of these pieces WILL suffer from strong detergents or cleaners since the oils will be removed. Unless you have the same type of oil to restore the luster (some of the oils used are sophisticated and expensive) the piece will not be the same after solvent cleaning. If you know, or suspect this to be the case, try cleaning the piece with plain water first to see if that is adequate. Loose crud will go away and the oils will be left unaffected.

Tolerance for oiling and other appearance enhancing techniques (vacuum treatments to make cracks and cleavage planes "disappear" for example) has also increased over the last 20 years and be aware that much material in the commercial end of the market as well as some of the top pieces has been subjected to these techniques. At the commercial end this is so routine it is seldom disclosed...at the higher end it is more likely to be, but it never hurts to ask.


Thanks for the advice for cleaning it. Now if it is oiled or not is a good question to ask. When I feel the crystals themselves, they do not feel oily or leave a residue on my fingers. However, I saw a few other similar fluorite from the show that were duller in color and not nearly as lustrous. Was my sample naturally of better color and aesthetics, or was it modified with oils? I purchased it from an American dealer and he did not mention any oiling.

I think it would be wise to try to lightly clean it with just water at first.
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PostPosted: Aug 17, 2015 22:45    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

Casimir Sarisky wrote:
I see. To be honest I have received conflicting advice in regards to buying specimens online: one camp advises to never accept any damage whatsoever on a specimen, and the other is more lax about its standards. For myself I of course would prefer specimens that have as little damage as possible, and could be considered "pristine" or "no damage". I am one who pays attention to the details, and if there is a noticeable spot of damage, I would focus in on it.

So when I shop online and in shows, I look for "no damage" and "pristine" listings. I even ask dealers on their websites about the condition of specimens that do not have the condition listed in the description.

As for repaired specimens, I am interested in acquiring a Pyrite from Navajun, Spain. Although I prefer such a specimen not to be repaired, I would accept repairs for one since these crystals naturally fall off from the soft matrix. I just want no damage along the corners and edges of the crystal.


Generally, specimens marked on line as damage free or pristine are those that seem damage free under a 10x loupe, although it is possible that a dealer may miss something when inspecting for damage. You always want a dealer who allows returns for any reason, including that you just don't like it after receipt. That way you are not stuck with a specimen that has innocently unseen damage or aesthetics not to your liking. Most online dealers allow returns.

Damage is relative, as Alfredo said earlier. Even if the specimen is damage free with a 10x loupe, it will most likely have some chipping at some higher magnification. Do you care that it can be seen at 50x or 100x or with a SEM? Its really up to you.

As to the Spanish pyrites - there is a difference in most people's minds about stabilizing a friable matrix, such as these pyrites or Mexican boleites, and gluing crystals back into the matrix. These pyrites are nearly always stabilized, so this has no effect on value or pricing.
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PostPosted: Aug 18, 2015 02:48    Post subject: Re: It Happened: I Dropped One Of My Specimens Onto The Carpet Floor  

GneissWare wrote:
Casimir Sarisky wrote:
I see. To be honest I have received conflicting advice in regards to buying specimens online: one camp advises to never accept any damage whatsoever on a specimen, and the other is more lax about its standards. For myself I of course would prefer specimens that have as little damage as possible, and could be considered "pristine" or "no damage". I am one who pays attention to the details, and if there is a noticeable spot of damage, I would focus in on it.

So when I shop online and in shows, I look for "no damage" and "pristine" listings. I even ask dealers on their websites about the condition of specimens that do not have the condition listed in the description.

As for repaired specimens, I am interested in acquiring a Pyrite from Navajun, Spain. Although I prefer such a specimen not to be repaired, I would accept repairs for one since these crystals naturally fall off from the soft matrix. I just want no damage along the corners and edges of the crystal.


Generally, specimens marked on line as damage free or pristine are those that seem damage free under a 10x loupe, although it is possible that a dealer may miss something when inspecting for damage. You always want a dealer who allows returns for any reason, including that you just don't like it after receipt. That way you are not stuck with a specimen that has innocently unseen damage or aesthetics not to your liking. Most online dealers allow returns.

Damage is relative, as Alfredo said earlier. Even if the specimen is damage free with a 10x loupe, it will most likely have some chipping at some higher magnification. Do you care that it can be seen at 50x or 100x or with a SEM? Its really up to you.

As to the Spanish pyrites - there is a difference in most people's minds about stabilizing a friable matrix, such as these pyrites or Mexican boleites, and gluing crystals back into the matrix. These pyrites are nearly always stabilized, so this has no effect on value or pricing.


A 10x loupe like the Belomo loupe? I have one of those but I have not used it much since it is rather awkward for me to use. I will probably get better with more experience.

In a matter of fact, I am going to return a specimen I received yesterday because the specimen online looked too different from what I received in person. I have made several transactions with this seller before so all should be well.

Idealistically I would it to have no damage whatsover. Realistically? No damage that is visible to my eyes, and would be classified as "no damage" in the eyes of other collectors. I would imagine that would mean nothing visible with a 10x loupe.
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