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Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?
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Daniel Boom




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PostPosted: Jul 09, 2017 17:09    Post subject: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

My mom was gardening and she has a piece of wood beam next to her garden and when she was moving it a piece broke off and the piece that broke off was completely petrified into stone and she said she just placed that wood beam there less than a year ago and now some of it is completely petrified. is this a normal occurrence or is it rare for wood to petrify that fast? i live in california if that makes any difference
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Dale Hallmark




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PostPosted: Jul 09, 2017 18:16    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

I remember a case we studied in one Geology or Hydrology class where fence posts were replaced and the old posts had been there for 20 or thirty years. The bottom part in the ground was petrified and the top was just old wood. In this case the groundwater was close to the surface and I guess conditions were just right.

So fast petrification is possible but I got the impression it was rare.

Dale
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PostPosted: Jul 09, 2017 18:19    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Can't technically happen, takes tens of thsands of years at best. no photos, and how do you define it as petrified? Could just be very dnse and hardened by absorbing moisture from the ground. Or could be an actual piece of petrified wood coincidentally underneath where some wood has broken and unrelated.
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PostPosted: Jul 09, 2017 20:20    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

In 2004, five Japanese scientists published examples of rapid petrification in Sedimentary Geology. The team of scientists, led by Hisatada Akahane, had analyzed a small lake in the explosion crater of the Tateyama Volcano in central Japan. A mineral-rich solution springs up from the bottom and fills the 15 m lake with steaming hot acidic water. This mineral-rich water then runs over the edge as a waterfall.

They discovered that the naturally fallen wood in the overflow had been petrified with silica. What surprised the scientists was the fact that the wood was less than 36 years old. As a result, the scientists conducted an experiment in which they fastened pieces of fresh wood in the lake with wire. Surprisingly, after only 7 years the wood had turned into stone, petrified with silica.

Fast Petrification of wood is documented in more places than the case study we did in Geology class.

Many times when we say something can't happen, nature will eventually prove us wrong.
Not always but often enough I would never make that claim.
Dale



SteveB wrote:
Can't technically happen, takes tens of thsands of years at best. no photos, and how do you define it as petrified? Could just be very dnse and hardened by absorbing moisture from the ground. Or could be an actual piece of petrified wood coincidentally underneath where some wood has broken and unrelated.
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: Jul 09, 2017 20:45    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

There are apparently at least 2 methods where very rapid petrification may occur. Now whether this is true science or pseudoscience, I am not sure, but it has been reported in several "scientific" papers.
What is interesting here is that creationism believers use these findings to support their ideas that the earth is not so old and lots of things scientifically thought to take millions of years to occur can, in fact, happen quickly so their thesis of creation is supported. BOB
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PostPosted: Jul 09, 2017 22:49    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

There were mine beams in Arizona (Ray mine, I think?) that were found to be partially replaced by native copper. as mining hasn't been going on there for tens of thousands of years, this would seem to be quite rapid replacement. And aren't the logs buried by Mt St Helens already partially replaced by silica?
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lluis




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 01:02    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Hi, All

Chemically, replacing wood by copper is easier than replacing it by silica....
Copper salt solutions are reduced by organic matter (wood), that gones and copper metal replaces it. Just a continuous source of copper salts in contact with wood should be there. More concentrated solution is, and more quantity per time, and hotter it is, quicker is replacing.

If wood is placed in a high concentrated silicate solution (say, sodium or potassium silicate), it would be impregnated by it. Any change of pH to acidic, and silica would precipitate. But to take all organic material out, well, I suppose that it took more time.. Over centuries, bacteria could attack remnants of wood, letting the silica, which could also absorb more silicate solution in voids, as the rest of wood, and when again silica precipitates, and that again and again ...

But in case of very quickly "petrified" wood, I would think, without having a sample in hands, that they talk about deeply impregnated wood, that, for case, would break also very easily. And that, if source of impregnating liquid is abundant, well, could take place in very few time... Even when that material is not petrified wood in the sense we use it.....

With best wishes

Lluís
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Dale Hallmark




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 08:15    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Unfortunate.

In New Zealand massive Kauri wood is dug up from under farms and it is dated to 50 thousand plus years old with no sign of petrification. Makes for some very expensive conference tables though. :-)

However I am not surprised the process may, in special circumstances, happen quickly.

Dale



Bob Harman wrote:
......What is interesting here is that creationism believers use these findings to support their ideas that the earth is not so old and lots of things scientifically thought to take millions of years to occur can, in fact, happen quickly so their thesis of creation is supported. BOB
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Vinoterapia




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 08:29    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Having read the previous comments, and considering the circumstances in which wood can be "quickly" petrified, I would suggest your mother to sell the house and move to a more healthy area.
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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 09:40    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

I agree - if it really happened, move now!
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lluis




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 10:09    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Dear Dale, all

I have a set of Kauri wood..... To have petrified wood.,well, it must be in a place where are abundant mineral sources that could lead to petrification be. Kauri in New Zealand was not.... So, no surprise....

For rest of bad omen ones, California is as healthier as any other place. Just one should look at the "petrified" wood..... Probably just a bad conserved one.... :-(

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 10:23    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

James wrote:
I agree - if it really happened, move now!


Hi James and Vinoterapia, can you please explain your comments.

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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 11:04    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

If the soil in my garden did that I would assume it is not healthy. As a risk expert, I would move!
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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 11:25    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

James wrote:
If the soil in my garden did that I would assume it is not healthy. As a risk expert, I would move!


The question here was not whether they should move or not, but how long it takes for wood to petrify. It is a well known fact that wood can petrify in a relatively short period of time if the conditions are right. Whether this was indeed the case here, we do not know for sure.

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lluis




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 11:29    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Why, James?

If you have a soil that is acidic and rich in minerals, that would not necessarily be bad, wood sold do what is said: break.... That to imagine that is petrified, well, is a long way....
Montseny mountains in Catalonia are very radioactive (granite... I killed a Geiger there...), and is natural park, and you could not see two headed rabbits, besides....

So, as I said, what is said and what is, well, not necessarily same....

And James, just as a remembering "radium beer" has been sold in Germany when Radium has been discovered, as a panacea.... I do not know about any healing, but also I do not know about any death.... (apart that i suppose that no anyone has survived more than is usual....Say, not 200 years )

So...?

With best wishes

Lluís
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lluis




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 11:50    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Hi, Pierre

Wood could be impregnated in salt solutions and become breakable in short time.
From that, to to have a silica pseudo wood, is another history.
A silica pseudo wood took many time.(simply organic matter should gone....and that take its time)
A copper pseudo wood, far less.
Two processes, two speeds...

But a true "petrified wood" took more time..
And trials, well, if wire has survived, then it is low saline and just a salt impregnated wood.
Done for fire proof trials at beginning last century (the XXth....)

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 13:35    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

The speed with which the organic matter in wood disappears is astonishingly variable, depending on conditions. In a tropical rainforest, wood might be gone in 6 months. On Axel Heiberg island there is Eocene wood (~ 40 million years old) that is still burnable and not mineralized!
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lluis




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PostPosted: Jul 10, 2017 15:03    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Yes, Alberto...
But in a rain forest, bacteria are widely available, and also fungus, that readily "eat" wood...
So, no surprise.
But if you have an environment with a lot of salts, those that would petrify wood, well, few bacteria and fungus would survive when the high mineralization time, and then, when flood goes down, they should recolonize media an return to eat wood... That takes some time. More than 7 years... Far more....

Kauri wood is also still burnable, in a not too cold climate and is not mineralized.... And as old as you say... So, I have the proof in hand. Thanks.
If wood is in a layer of clay, out of oxygen, out of water, well, fungus and bacteria need so (yes anaerobic bacteria ones, no oxygen), but all need water. No water, no decomposition... So, again no wonder...

But mineralizing needs water, so.....

Then, answer is true but just too general. Wood could be readily decomposed, but to be mineralized needs some conditions that make it. A quickly mineralized wood, as we understand it, or so I think we understand..., a siliceous piece that is pseudo wood, but no more wood (organic mater), well, quickly means several thousands of years. In Earth. Not in a labo...

With best wishes

Lluís
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Vinoterapia




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PostPosted: Jul 11, 2017 08:25    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Hi Pierre.

As you have seen, the examples quoted for a quick "petrification" of wood are rather extreme, associated with active volcanic areas and/or water seeping into mines. Certainly, a source for a mineral-rich water-solution would be needed. Thus, if those conditions would exist in my backyard, I would not like my grandchildren playing in such area, I do not think that would be "healthy".

As some other fellows in the forum, I do not believe Daniel statement of a log being petrified in less than a year. How quick this would happen, well the examples posted mentioned several years under the right (extreme?) conditions.
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Pierre Joubert




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PostPosted: Jul 11, 2017 10:29    Post subject: Re: Wood completely Petrified in less than a year?  

Hi Vinoterapia and lluis. here are 2 extracts that I find interesting. It seems to me quite obvious that the wood in question is from (b)

(a) Artificial petrified wood has been produced in a Washington laboratory. In the process, small cubes of pine are soaked in an acid bath for two days, then in a silica solution for another two. The product is then cooked at 1400 °C in an argon atmosphere for two hours. The result was silicon carbide ceramic which preserved the intricate cell structure of the wood.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrified_wood

The point is that petrified wood can be made by man in less than a week, simulating nature (the silica method)

(b) 'There are several lakes, rivers and streams in the world which petrify wood, changing it into stone, but none so rapidly as the above Californian stream, so far as we are aware. It must be very strongly charged with the carbonate of lim'.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-petrifying-stream/
(link normalized by FMF)

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