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Scientifically Identifying Minerals?
  
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evin likes rocks




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PostPosted: Aug 29, 2017 21:27    Post subject: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Hi!
I need to be able to analyze exactly what is in a mineral. So, if I had shungite I would need to know exactly how much pyrite was in it, exactly how much shungite, and if there were any other things in it.

The rock will be crushed to a powder (making pigment). So thus the particles can get to super tiny sizes. I'll be starting off with using a 34 micron mesh.

How can I do this? I was suggested to do microscopy, but I can't look at every single molecule and see whats what. That would be a lot of effort.

I am within reach of the UIC. Not a student. I would not like to actually buy an object and instead use an hourly service.

http://www.rrc.uic.edu/
(link normalized by FMF)

Thanks!
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Pete Modreski
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PostPosted: Aug 29, 2017 22:44    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Dear Evin, What you are asking to try to do can be extremely difficult and complex, and in many cases, may not be really possible at all. It alll depends on what the minerals are and how fine-grained the mineral particles are. Some combinations of minerals in rocks could be very easy to separate and quantify--for an example, magnetite in calcite. Others would be extremely difficult--and "pyrite in shungite" is probably one such. To separate and accurately measure the content of each mineral would probably require exact knowlege of the grain size and nature of each mineral, how they are intergrown, how they respond to different kinds of separation methods, and what kinds of analytical methods are approrpriate to measure the amount of each mineral. This is the kind of challenge that mine operators often face in deciding how best to separate and extract the several different minerals in their ore--and to work this out, may require years of work and experimentation by specialists skilled in the technology of mineral extraction. So I would not get too hopeful that you'll be able to do such things.
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lluis




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PostPosted: Aug 30, 2017 02:57    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Hi, Peter, Evin

Peter, I am chemist, not geologist and maybe what I would say is too optimistic, but in my mind, I think that making a diffraction of a sample of ore, and then passing the spectra by a program that could split the compound spectra in the different spectres, that would serve to quantify the composition.

X Ray diffraction is not a trouble, is old known. To have the program that serves to quantify, I suppose that any would be there... (I have a piece of sulfides from Romania in which is quantified the two components, so, in any way has been done....)

For "exact composition", well, that remains in what Evin think is "exact". All analysis have a limit of error, and homogeneity of sample/s would be also an important argument...
So "exact" would be better described as "the most accurate I have been able to be"

As a curiosity, I get (and loss again...) some years ago a paper on the results of analysis of precious ore metals done by some official Labs in USA. They were tested sending to all them a same synthetic "ore", and asking them to determine composition in metals.

Results were all different, and no one the real one, with some very far from reality. Done by humid methods (chemical ones.....). So..... :-(

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Aug 30, 2017 03:27    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Thank you both for the replies.
I should have went into details in the original post.
To make and sell in the US, it was required by the ACMI to know each ingredient.
Was also told i needed a % loading number. i do not believe it has to be accurate to a T. as long as the number is not significant enough.
From my chats with Duke Uni:

"You would send the complete formula for each product line and a sample of the final product."

"The reason for having a board certified toxicologist review your complete formula is to determine if any of the components in the final product present a health hazard alone or in combination with the other ingredients they are mixed with to create the final product. because of acmi’s reputation in the industry for their certification program and what the acmi seals stand for, the bar is even higher than just what the federal laws require. our review of your product formula, etc would determine if there were any labeling concers for safe use.
"

This is possible to some extent, because there is a larger company that does this as well but they are lacking some colors which I wanted to provide.
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Pete Modreski
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PostPosted: Aug 30, 2017 11:53    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Evin, you can just look at or quote from a scientific research paper like this one,

http://rspublication.com/ijst/dec13/2.pdf

The structure and composition of natural carbonaceous fullerene containing mineral shungite

which gives quite complete data on the chemical composition of shungite. You might note, that although the theme of this paper is the fullerene type of carbon present in the shungite, the fullerene is actually only a very minor ingredient (less that 0.01 wt %) and the bulk of the shungite is just amorphous carbon, silica, and mica.

Pete
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lluis




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PostPosted: Aug 31, 2017 10:32    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Dear Evin

If that is to sell, and chemistry related, well, I am chemist and I produce and sell in Catalonia (for textile industry; nothing more away fro minerals.....)
In EU, we use REACH.
Composition is needed, but the amount of fullerenes in shungite, to refer what is mainly said, is just negligible for REACH.

Apart that any polymer over three units is not in REACH, and fullerenes, well....

Anyway, I frankly think that you should look at the legislation in which you wish to sell, buy the program about the security data sheets in that legislation, and do what they ask you.

I fear that it is more a question of legislation than a question on minerals.
And in legislation, well, I think that it is not the scope of group. That, maybe I am too strict, or maybe too old, but are *only* minerals

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Sep 02, 2017 06:51    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

lluis wrote:
Dear Evin

If that is to sell, and chemistry related, well, I am chemist and I produce and sell in Catalonia (for textile industry; nothing more away fro minerals.....)
In EU, we use REACH.
Composition is needed, but the amount of fullerenes in shungite, to refer what is mainly said, is just negligible for REACH.

Apart that any polymer over three units is not in REACH, and fullerenes, well....

Anyway, I frankly think that you should look at the legislation in which you wish to sell, buy the program about the security data sheets in that legislation, and do what they ask you.

I fear that it is more a question of legislation than a question on minerals.
And in legislation, well, I think that it is not the scope of group. That, maybe I am too strict, or maybe too old, but are *only* minerals

With best wishes

Lluís


No, it is not a question of legality. I just added more details. I was hoping someone might know a broader way of identifying the mineral since it doesnt have to be extremely precise.

I already have talked with the program that allows me to make and sell. And they have told me that I need know all the ingredients, hence me posting my question. I am from the States.

Just because my reason for identifying is for legal purposes doesn't change the fact I am asking about minerals.

I just need to identify minerals.
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lluis




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PostPosted: Sep 02, 2017 07:01    Post subject: Re: Scientifically Identifying Minerals?  

Dear Evin

Identifying could be done by XRD very precisely.
Quantifying, I said that I have a sulfide that is a solid solution, and is quantified which extent of each through the XRD program.

More, I cannot say.
If you have not idea of limit of precision, maybe what people are asking for is just non-sense, in the sense that no analysis is 100% exact....

Sorry not to be of more help

With best wishes

Lluís
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