We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >

FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences

FMF English Forum is moderated by John S. White and Peter Megaw
 

Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
22 Nov-03:56:24 Re: new generation for picture - ploum (Pierre Joubert)
22 Nov-03:09:39 Re: new generation for picture - ploum (Tobi)
21 Nov-22:04:25 Re: munich show (mineralientage) 2017 (Roger Warin)
21 Nov-21:33:30 Re: munich show (mineralientage) 2017 (Roger Warin)
21 Nov-15:55:24 Re: the mizunaka collection (Philippe Durand)
21 Nov-15:22:37 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Pete Richards)
21 Nov-13:43:39 Re: new generation for picture - ploum (Ploum)
21 Nov-13:35:45 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Tobi)
21 Nov-12:27:46 Re: micro photos of inclusions in quartz (Zbhjzm)
21 Nov-11:20:15 Re: rarest quartz twins with inclined axes c (Reef)
21 Nov-10:11:59 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Pete Richards)
21 Nov-04:25:25 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Tobi)
21 Nov-04:21:11 Re: in memoriam: adalberto giazotto (1940-2017) (Tobi)
21 Nov-04:17:44 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Pierre Joubert)
21 Nov-03:40:43 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Tobi)
21 Nov-02:38:54 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Jm)
21 Nov-02:19:38 Re: micro photos of inclusions in quartz (Zbhjzm)
20 Nov-19:15:32 Re: franjungle collection (Franjungle)
20 Nov-18:11:57 Re: is this zircon ? (Dimce Catle)
20 Nov-17:35:46 Re: questions about microcline (Josele)
20 Nov-15:48:34 The mizunaka collection - copper (Am Mizunaka)
20 Nov-15:47:11 Re: is this zircon ? (Pete Modreski)
20 Nov-15:27:59 Re: mineral names in different languages and their meaning (Peter)
20 Nov-15:19:19 Re: is this zircon ? (Lluis)
20 Nov-13:24:47 Re: is this zircon ? (Dimce Catle)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
35589


The time now is Nov 22, 2017 04:32

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz
  
  Index -> What is it? - Where is it from?
Like
2


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 01:26    Post subject: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Here are some microscopic pictures of the inclusions.
This blue one turns red under Chelsea filter.



8.jpg
 Mineral: quartz
 Description:
 Viewed:  1817 Time(s)

8.jpg



5s.jpg
 Mineral: quartz
 Description:
 Viewed:  1822 Time(s)

5s.jpg



4s.jpg
 Mineral: quartz
 Description:
 Viewed:  1823 Time(s)

4s.jpg



1s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1820 Time(s)

1s.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 01:32    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

This one has light green inclusion.


IMG_2085s.jpg
 Mineral: quartz
 Description:
 Viewed:  1814 Time(s)

IMG_2085s.jpg



3.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1821 Time(s)

3.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 01:42    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

This one has inclusions of four colors: green red blue and yellow.


4.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1813 Time(s)

4.jpg



5.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1814 Time(s)

5.jpg



IMG_2625s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1812 Time(s)

IMG_2625s.jpg



1.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1812 Time(s)

1.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Riccardo Modanesi




Joined: 07 Nov 2011
Posts: 471
Location: Milano

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 09:27    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Hi Zbhjzm!
A personal opinion: blue inclusions = lazulite or dumortierite;
Green inclusions: olivenite or diopside (more likely the latter one);
red inclusions = hematite;
yellow inclusions = iron oxydes or titanium oxydes (maybe brookite).
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

_________________
Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 180
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 10:08    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Hi,
what you have is a "Lodo Quartz" from Brasil and cut in China (typical cut). All the inclusions are chlorite group minerals in a vermicular growing pattern. The paragenesis hypothesized is quite impossible.
The blue inclusions have presented a problem to its interpretation since few years when they appeared first on the market. Most diffused opinion is that they are dyed. The red color to the Chelsea can be due to cobalt blue dye.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 10:23    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Riccardo Modanesi wrote:
Hi Zbhjzm!
A personal opinion: blue inclusions = lazulite or dumortierite;
Green inclusions: olivenite or diopside (more likely the latter one);
red inclusions = hematite;
yellow inclusions = iron oxydes or titanium oxydes (maybe brookite).
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.


Thanks a lot, your opinion is most helpful
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 10:52    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
Hi,
what you have is a "Lodo Quartz" from Brasil and cut in China (typical cut). All the inclusions are chlorite group minerals in a vermicular growing pattern. The paragenesis hypothesized is quite impossible.
The blue inclusions have presented a problem to its interpretation since few years when they appeared first on the market. Most diffused opinion is that they are dyed. The red color to the Chelsea can be due to cobalt blue dye.


Thanks a lot for your reply.
About for the blue one . I examined it throughly and found parts of the inclusions are so well wrapped in the quartz,there's no way for the color dye to get in.Perhaps,it is dyed by nature?
By the way, I encountered several of those dyed phantom quartz before.They are easy to identify if you examine the back of them.The picture below is one of them.



TB2ImHrajzB11BjSspaXXcJ0VXa_!!1026583427.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1696 Time(s)

TB2ImHrajzB11BjSspaXXcJ0VXa_!!1026583427.jpg



TB2IMjpaoTz11Bjy0FlXXX5BpXa_!!1026583427.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1697 Time(s)

TB2IMjpaoTz11Bjy0FlXXX5BpXa_!!1026583427.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 180
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:07    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Vermicular growth of chlorite gives perfect and intricate ways for the dye to enter the stone. Just make an experiment and you will be easily convinced. Some isolated portion remain of their original color, other are in communication with the exterior and get the color. Natural dying doesn't exist.
Dumortierite is common in quartz, but with a different paragenesis and from a different location, Bahia instead than Minas Gerais.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:31    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
Vermicular growth of chlorite gives perfect and intricate ways for the dye to enter the stone. Just make an experiment and you will be easily convinced. Some isolated portion remain of their original color, other are in communication with the exterior and get the color. Natural dying doesn't exist.
Dumortierite is common in quartz, but with a different paragenesis and from a different location, Bahia instead than Minas Gerais.


This one is truly different from the typical dyed quartz you described.
It's inclusions are not Vermicular shape like the picture showed below.And I found some isolated clusters of the inclusions are blue,while some clusters close to the exterior are white.



IMG_1878.JPG
 Description:
 Viewed:  1678 Time(s)

IMG_1878.JPG



3s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1678 Time(s)

3s.jpg



9.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1675 Time(s)

9.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:43    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Here are some more pics of the blue type.


TB25adMAipnpuFjSZFIXXXh2VXa_!!905506034.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1670 Time(s)

TB25adMAipnpuFjSZFIXXXh2VXa_!!905506034.jpg



TB2E.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1668 Time(s)

TB2E.jpg



TB2g.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1668 Time(s)

TB2g.jpg



TB2_V.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1669 Time(s)

TB2_V.jpg



TB2b.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1667 Time(s)

TB2b.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 180
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:49    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

I told you dying is just the most diffused opinion. The experts in quartz inclusions are not sure. But you agree that some of them are dyed because you have a dyed quartz in your hand. And you can compare. I had some blue inclusions that are liquid with air bubbles. Many of them looks to be well inside the crystal. But the ways a liquid can fill a quartz are many. Like opticon in emeralds.
I'm totally convinced the blue is fake.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 180
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:52    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

I'm with you that your last specimen looks natural.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 12:03    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
I'm with you that your last specimen looks natural.

Thanks ,the last and the first one are the same type,only the first one is better in
quality and can be cut into a pendant.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 03, 2017 00:43    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
I told you dying is just the most diffused opinion. The experts in quartz inclusions are not sure. But you agree that some of them are dyed because you have a dyed quartz in your hand. And you can compare. I had some blue inclusions that are liquid with air bubbles. Many of them looks to be well inside the crystal. But the ways a liquid can fill a quartz are many. Like opticon in emeralds.
I'm totally convinced the blue is fake.

Hi Marco ,
Look what I have found in a new specimen I recently acquired.
There are blue inclusions inside the quartz with some liquid like inclusions nearby.
So, maybe we should reconsider the possibility of natural dying.
The liquid inclusions inside the specimens you had might be the same thing that gives these blue phantom quartz their unique color.

References:
http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=57310
http://www.gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=20987
http://www.gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3531
(links normalized by FMF)



12s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1084 Time(s)

12s.jpg



13s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1095 Time(s)

13s.jpg



11s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1082 Time(s)

11s.jpg



20171003105601.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1087 Time(s)

20171003105601.jpg



20171003105620.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  1085 Time(s)

20171003105620.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 05, 2017 01:58    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Also found some isolated chambers with blue fluid and bubbles inside,might be a proof of natural dying.


20171003195632.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  977 Time(s)

20171003195632.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 05, 2017 03:11    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Visible absorption spectrum of the blue inclusions.


20171005153613.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  958 Time(s)

20171005153613.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 16, 2017 22:37    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

zbhjzm wrote:
Here are some more pics of the blue type.

Found blue fluid inclusions in this specimen too.
Now I'm quite sure of the natural dying theory.



20171017023512s.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  653 Time(s)

20171017023512s.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

James
Site Admin



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 520
Location: Cambridge


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 17, 2017 04:15    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

This may just be a question of langauge, but to me 'dyeing' is something only mankind does so it cannot be 'natural' by definition. I guess you mean natural coloring?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeing
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

zbhjzm




Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Posts: 49

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Oct 17, 2017 04:46    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

James wrote:
This may just be a question of langauge, but to me 'dyeing' is something only mankind does so it cannot be 'natural' by definition. I guess you mean natural coloring?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeing


Thank you for correcting me.
My English is poor.
Forgive me if i made any misspelling or misusing of English words...
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> What is it? - Where is it from?   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1
    

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2017


Powered by FMF