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Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz
  
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 01:26    Post subject: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Here are some microscopic pictures of the inclusions.
This blue one turns red under Chelsea filter.



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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 01:32    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

This one has light green inclusion.


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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 01:42    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

This one has inclusions of four colors: green red blue and yellow.


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Riccardo Modanesi




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 09:27    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Hi Zbhjzm!
A personal opinion: blue inclusions = lazulite or dumortierite;
Green inclusions: olivenite or diopside (more likely the latter one);
red inclusions = hematite;
yellow inclusions = iron oxydes or titanium oxydes (maybe brookite).
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

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Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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marco campos-venuti




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 10:08    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Hi,
what you have is a "Lodo Quartz" from Brasil and cut in China (typical cut). All the inclusions are chlorite group minerals in a vermicular growing pattern. The paragenesis hypothesized is quite impossible.
The blue inclusions have presented a problem to its interpretation since few years when they appeared first on the market. Most diffused opinion is that they are dyed. The red color to the Chelsea can be due to cobalt blue dye.
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 10:23    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Riccardo Modanesi wrote:
Hi Zbhjzm!
A personal opinion: blue inclusions = lazulite or dumortierite;
Green inclusions: olivenite or diopside (more likely the latter one);
red inclusions = hematite;
yellow inclusions = iron oxydes or titanium oxydes (maybe brookite).
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.


Thanks a lot, your opinion is most helpful
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 10:52    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
Hi,
what you have is a "Lodo Quartz" from Brasil and cut in China (typical cut). All the inclusions are chlorite group minerals in a vermicular growing pattern. The paragenesis hypothesized is quite impossible.
The blue inclusions have presented a problem to its interpretation since few years when they appeared first on the market. Most diffused opinion is that they are dyed. The red color to the Chelsea can be due to cobalt blue dye.


Thanks a lot for your reply.
About for the blue one . I examined it throughly and found parts of the inclusions are so well wrapped in the quartz,there's no way for the color dye to get in.Perhaps,it is dyed by nature?
By the way, I encountered several of those dyed phantom quartz before.They are easy to identify if you examine the back of them.The picture below is one of them.



TB2ImHrajzB11BjSspaXXcJ0VXa_!!1026583427.jpg
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TB2ImHrajzB11BjSspaXXcJ0VXa_!!1026583427.jpg



TB2IMjpaoTz11Bjy0FlXXX5BpXa_!!1026583427.jpg
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TB2IMjpaoTz11Bjy0FlXXX5BpXa_!!1026583427.jpg


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marco campos-venuti




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:07    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Vermicular growth of chlorite gives perfect and intricate ways for the dye to enter the stone. Just make an experiment and you will be easily convinced. Some isolated portion remain of their original color, other are in communication with the exterior and get the color. Natural dying doesn't exist.
Dumortierite is common in quartz, but with a different paragenesis and from a different location, Bahia instead than Minas Gerais.
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:31    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
Vermicular growth of chlorite gives perfect and intricate ways for the dye to enter the stone. Just make an experiment and you will be easily convinced. Some isolated portion remain of their original color, other are in communication with the exterior and get the color. Natural dying doesn't exist.
Dumortierite is common in quartz, but with a different paragenesis and from a different location, Bahia instead than Minas Gerais.


This one is truly different from the typical dyed quartz you described.
It's inclusions are not Vermicular shape like the picture showed below.And I found some isolated clusters of the inclusions are blue,while some clusters close to the exterior are white.



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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:43    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Here are some more pics of the blue type.


TB25adMAipnpuFjSZFIXXXh2VXa_!!905506034.jpg
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marco campos-venuti




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:49    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

I told you dying is just the most diffused opinion. The experts in quartz inclusions are not sure. But you agree that some of them are dyed because you have a dyed quartz in your hand. And you can compare. I had some blue inclusions that are liquid with air bubbles. Many of them looks to be well inside the crystal. But the ways a liquid can fill a quartz are many. Like opticon in emeralds.
I'm totally convinced the blue is fake.
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marco campos-venuti




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 11:52    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

I'm with you that your last specimen looks natural.
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2017 12:03    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
I'm with you that your last specimen looks natural.

Thanks ,the last and the first one are the same type,only the first one is better in
quality and can be cut into a pendant.
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Oct 03, 2017 00:43    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
I told you dying is just the most diffused opinion. The experts in quartz inclusions are not sure. But you agree that some of them are dyed because you have a dyed quartz in your hand. And you can compare. I had some blue inclusions that are liquid with air bubbles. Many of them looks to be well inside the crystal. But the ways a liquid can fill a quartz are many. Like opticon in emeralds.
I'm totally convinced the blue is fake.

Hi Marco ,
Look what I have found in a new specimen I recently acquired.
There are blue inclusions inside the quartz with some liquid like inclusions nearby.
So, maybe we should reconsider the possibility of natural dying.
The liquid inclusions inside the specimens you had might be the same thing that gives these blue phantom quartz their unique color.

References:
http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=57310
http://www.gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=20987
http://www.gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3531
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Oct 05, 2017 01:58    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Also found some isolated chambers with blue fluid and bubbles inside,might be a proof of natural dying.


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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Oct 05, 2017 03:11    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

Visible absorption spectrum of the blue inclusions.


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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Oct 16, 2017 22:37    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

zbhjzm wrote:
Here are some more pics of the blue type.

Found blue fluid inclusions in this specimen too.
Now I'm quite sure of the natural dying theory.



20171017023512s.jpg
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20171017023512s.jpg


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James
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PostPosted: Oct 17, 2017 04:15    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

This may just be a question of langauge, but to me 'dyeing' is something only mankind does so it cannot be 'natural' by definition. I guess you mean natural coloring?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeing
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zbhjzm




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PostPosted: Oct 17, 2017 04:46    Post subject: Re: Need help ID the inclusions of these phantom quartz  

James wrote:
This may just be a question of langauge, but to me 'dyeing' is something only mankind does so it cannot be 'natural' by definition. I guess you mean natural coloring?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeing


Thank you for correcting me.
My English is poor.
Forgive me if i made any misspelling or misusing of English words...
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