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Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C
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Reef




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PostPosted: Oct 22, 2017 06:39    Post subject: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Probably many collectors will be interested in this topic.

Tiflis law twin



tiflis.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 16x13mm
 Description:
I apologize for the poor picture quality.
 Viewed:  2259 Time(s)

tiflis.jpg



Tiflis.jpg
 Mineral: Tiflis law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Green lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
 Viewed:  2229 Time(s)

Tiflis.jpg


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PostPosted: Oct 22, 2017 07:52    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Zyndel A law twin


Zyndel A.jpg
 Mineral: Zyndel A law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Green lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
 Viewed:  2236 Time(s)

Zyndel A.jpg



zA.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 9x5mm
 Description:
Zyndel A law twin
 Viewed:  2224 Time(s)

zA.jpg


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PostPosted: Oct 22, 2017 08:06    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Sella Law Twin


Sella Law.jpg
 Mineral: Sella Law Twin
 Description:
Sella Law Twin
Schematic drawing
Blue lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
 Viewed:  2234 Time(s)

Sella Law.jpg



sella.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 18x8mm
 Description:
Sella Law Twin
 Viewed:  2219 Time(s)

sella.jpg


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Reef




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PostPosted: Oct 23, 2017 09:55    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Zinnwald Law Twin


Zinnwald Law Twin.jpg
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Zinnwald Law Twin
Red lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
1 variant
 Viewed:  2093 Time(s)

Zinnwald Law Twin.jpg



Zinnwald Law Twin r.jpg
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Zinnwald Law Twin
Red lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
2 variant
 Viewed:  2090 Time(s)

Zinnwald Law Twin r.jpg



znwl(1).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 16x8 mm
 Description:
Zinnwald Law Twin
 Viewed:  2090 Time(s)

znwl(1).jpg



znwl(2).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 16x8 mm
 Description:
Zinnwald Law TwinAnother perspective
 Viewed:  2089 Time(s)

znwl(2).jpg


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Reef




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PostPosted: Oct 23, 2017 10:46    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Lötschental law twin


lotschental .jpg
 Mineral: Lötschental law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Lötschental law twin
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
1 variant
 Viewed:  2083 Time(s)

lotschental .jpg



lotschental R.jpg
 Mineral: Lötschental law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Lötschental law twin
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
2 variant
 Viewed:  2071 Time(s)

lotschental R.jpg


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Reef




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PostPosted: Oct 23, 2017 11:20    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Zyndel L law twin


Zyndel - L.jpg
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Zyndel L law twin
Red lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
1 variant
 Viewed:  2062 Time(s)

Zyndel - L.jpg



Zyndel - L r.jpg
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Zyndel L law twin
Red lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
2 variant
 Viewed:  2059 Time(s)

Zyndel - L r.jpg



zndl.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 18x9 mm
 Description:
Zyndel L law twin
 Viewed:  2060 Time(s)

zndl.jpg


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marco campos-venuti




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PostPosted: Oct 23, 2017 13:05    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Hi, I have a strange group of crystals of irradiated quartz from Arkansas.
The crystal A lays on the matrix. The crystal B grows from a rhombohedron face of crystal A. A and B crystals share a plane of symmetry having two faces of the prism with same orientation in both crystals. B has the C axis rotated of around 50 degrees.
Rhombohedron z of crystal A is parallel to prism of crystal B.
Do you think it is a twinning?
In the same group there is another crystal with two flat crystals above two prism faces with rotation of c axis (last picture shows one of them). Which law is it?
marco



IMG_9430.JPG
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Arkansas, USA
 Dimensions: 11 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  2027 Time(s)

IMG_9430.JPG



IMG_9430 - copia.JPG
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Arkansas, USA
 Dimensions: 11 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  2025 Time(s)

IMG_9430 - copia.JPG



IMG_9432.JPG
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Arkansas, USA
 Dimensions: 11 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  2026 Time(s)

IMG_9432.JPG



IMG_9432 - copia.JPG
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Arkansas, USA
 Dimensions: 11 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  2029 Time(s)

IMG_9432 - copia.JPG



IMG_9437.JPG
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Arkansas, USA
 Dimensions: 11 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  2027 Time(s)

IMG_9437.JPG


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Reef




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PostPosted: Oct 23, 2017 14:10    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Hi! Something does not fit. If the rhombohedra are parallel, then the prisms should not be parallel. Or I not so understood. Please mark the photo with a cross on the parallel faces.
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marco campos-venuti




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PostPosted: Oct 23, 2017 15:39    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

The prism of both crystals has a face parallel to the picture.
The crystal B is rotated 50 degrees in respect with A, that is the same angle between the prism and the rhombohedron, resulting that the rotated face of the prism of B (not the same face, but one that is perpendicular to the picture) is parallel to the r rhombohedron of the crystal A.



IMG_9430 - copia - copia.JPG
 Description:
 Viewed:  1972 Time(s)

IMG_9430 - copia - copia.JPG



IMG_9432 - copia.JPG
 Description:
 Viewed:  1971 Time(s)

IMG_9432 - copia.JPG


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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2017 11:32    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Seedorf 2 law twin


Seedorf 2.jpg
 Mineral: Seedorf 2 law twin
 Description:
Seedorf 2 law twin
Schematic drawing
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
Variant 1
 Viewed:  1776 Time(s)

Seedorf 2.jpg



Seedorf 2 R .jpg
 Mineral: Seedorf 2 law twin
 Description:
Seedorf 2 law twin
Schematic drawing
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
Variant 2
 Viewed:  1774 Time(s)

Seedorf 2 R .jpg



80.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 11x8 mm
 Description:
Seedorf 2 law twin
 Viewed:  1786 Time(s)

80.jpg


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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2017 11:55    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Seedorf 1 law twin


Seedorf 1.jpg
 Mineral: Seedorf 1 law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Seedorf 1 law twin
Red lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
Variant 1
 Viewed:  1771 Time(s)

Seedorf 1.jpg



Seedorf 1 r.jpg
 Mineral: Seedorf 1 law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Seedorf 1 law twin
Red lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
Variant 2
 Viewed:  1767 Time(s)

Seedorf 1 r.jpg



02.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 13x4 mm
 Description:
Seedorf 1 law twin
 Viewed:  1779 Time(s)

02.jpg


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Josele




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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2017 15:56    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Reef, sorry for my ignorance, I have not heard about these quartz twins before. They really fit the Twin definition by the International Union of Crystallography?
Which are the twin operations?
Thanks for explanation.

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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2017 16:14    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

marco campos-venuti wrote:
The prism of both crystals has a face parallel to the picture.
The crystal B is rotated 50 degrees in respect with A, that is the same angle between the prism and the rhombohedron, resulting that the rotated face of the prism of B (not the same face, but one that is perpendicular to the picture) is parallel to the r rhombohedron of the crystal A.

Marco, I know is difficult to interpret a 3D volume from 2D photos but I can't understand your reasoning. The faces marked with yellow lines do not look parallel to me, I don't see any prism face "parallel to the picture" (understanding for this perpendicular to the point of view of the photo), nor any prism face "perpendicular to the picture" ...

Regarding the two crystals rotated 90ş, his relative position is almost a Japan law. Have you measured angles accurately?

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Pete Richards
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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2017 19:57    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

I have been watching this thread with interest, and with Josele's comments I am motivated to weigh in.

The classical model of contact twinning by growth is of two individuals which come into existence simultaneously or very nearly so, under conditions which permit such "mistakes" to persist but quickly cease to be favored as a crystal increases in size. This results in two (or sometimes several) individuals of nearly the same size related (usually) to each other by a relationship that can be expressed as a rational plane with simple Miller indices in the symmetry system of the mineral, usually a mirror operation.

Various experiments and observations demonstrate that another mode of oriented growth occurs in which one or more seeds of a second generation fall upon an existing crystal, and "skate around" to find an energetically favorable orientation. If this orientation is exact parallelism with the existing crystal's lattice, we may never recognize their existence. But other relatively low-energy orientations can be found and favored for further growth of the new individual.

In some minerals, some of these orientations correspond to those of classical twins. In others cases, they represent new orientations that can recur more frequently than random orientations (though observer bias has to be considered).

In quartz, a number of "exotic" laws have been proposed, as summarized in the third volume of Dana's System, 7th edition. Most of these are known only from "young on old" relationships such as are being illustrated in this thread. The well respected crystalographer Dr. Clifford Frondel, the author of this volume, reports these relationships but expresses skepticism about their validity.

In my view, the relationships described in this thread fail to meet the standard of description for classical twins (i.e. a twin plane or a twin operation relating subequal individuals). They are much more akin to the descriptions of epitactic relationships, in which a pair of planes are parallel and a pair of vectors in those planes are also parallel. Perhaps these "twins" should be considered examples of autoepitaxy (homoepitaxy) rather than classical twinning. If multiple examples of twins showing two subequal individuals related by the reported orientations can be found and rigorously documented, the case for calling them twins, at least in the classical sense, would be much stronger.

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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2017 08:10    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Pete, thanks for the clarification.I did only visualization of these twinning laws. So far, nothing new has been proposed. In the literature there are only descriptions or mentions of these laws, and I have never seen drawings or photos. Therefore, most collectors and do not know what their appearance (especially in nature). I hope with the help of my schematic drawings the statistics of the finds will increase. The skepticism of K. Frondel is in my opinion connected with a small amount of finds.

In quartz, there are only two types of classical twinning: the Dauphine and the Brazilian. All other types are related to contact, regardless of the genesis and size of subindivids. Twinning is associated with the crystal lattice, and the appearance is secondary. The twinned part (common for subindivids) in such twins is usually a very thin layer at the place of contact (possibly atoms or molecules). Geometrically the correct habit is not found in nature. In the history of quartz mining (millions and millions of tons ...), there is no known finding with equal subindivids, except for Japanese twins. Although in any form of such finds is very small.
I can be mistaken, I'm just an amateur.
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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2017 10:37    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

One of the most favorite types of twinning
Disentis law twin



Disentis.jpg
 Mineral: Disentis law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Disentis law twin
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
Variant 1
 Viewed:  1611 Time(s)

Disentis.jpg



quartzR 22.jpg
 Mineral: Disentis law twin
 Description:
Schematic drawing
Disentis law twin
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
Variant 2
 Viewed:  1622 Time(s)

quartzR 22.jpg



82.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 9x5 mm
 Description:
Disentis law twin
 Viewed:  1609 Time(s)

82.jpg



83.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 9x5 mm
 Description:
Disentis law twin
 Viewed:  1610 Time(s)

83.jpg


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Pete Richards
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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2017 16:30    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Reef, thanks for your comments. Your drawings are quite useful - you are right that (as far as I know) these rare relationships for quartz have been described verbally only. Can you tell us how you made the diagrams?

Your suggestion that Frondel's doubts about these rare relationships stems from their scarcity is undoubtedly true (but perhaps not the whole story). And having images to look at may lead to more discoveries. However, for true twinning the lattice rules the orientation, and deviation from the theoretical angular relationship of more than a fragment of a degree is enough to call into question the validity of a proposed example, in contrast to its being a random orientation. Precise measurement is critical in building a convincing case.

I would encourage you to look up the recent treatment of twinning in general that Josele cited. It is excellent and rigorous, and I was not aware of it (thanks, Josele). As I read it, your rare relationships would not count as true twins according to this treatment, but would probably be considered pleisiotwins, for which the relationship requirements are much looser.

Finally, I think you misunderstood what I meant by "classical twinning". The Brazil and Dauphine twins are penetration twins and conform to classical concepts. But the Japan law twin also conforms to classical concepts (of contact twinning) in the sense that it involves two equal individuals related across a crystallographic plane with low Miller indices. To these examples of classical twins, I think we can add the Reichenstein twin and the Grieserntal twin, which have been found with some frequency in the northwestern US, and the so-called Belovda twin (by contact on (302) ), for which two absolutely convincing large specimens from different localities are known.

These are all examples of twins in the classical sense, the first two being penetration twins and the others being contact twins

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PostPosted: Oct 27, 2017 07:48    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Pete, thanks for the corrections. About the schematic drawings, a little prehistory. Two years ago I became interested in quartz twins. According to the book K. Frondel at first absolutely did not understand anything. I began to study all available literature on this topic. I tried to glue crystals together in some twin positions for visualization. Gradually came the understanding of how they look. It turned out that in this book all elementary simply it is written. Plus to knowledge, began to find twins on one small manifestation of quartz.Picture will certainly help to find the supposed twins, but the proof will of course be the measurement of angles or X-ray analysis. But some twins (for example disentis, Japanese) can be determined with great certainty visually by the glare of the corresponding faces.I do not know to which subtype of twinning all these laws apply. These subtleties are of interest to a very narrow circle of specialists, but not for amateurs. I know the historical names and add new labels, I think it's wrong. You will not deny that they exist, regardless of the name.
As for the Japanese twins, I will prepare and discuss some issues.
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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 15:51    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

The concept of two equal individuals in twins is wrong.
In the laws of twinning, there is no condition for the relative dimensions of subindivids.
Here are some examples.
Japan Law Twin



1 (1).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 16x12mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1226 Time(s)

1 (1).jpg



1 (2).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 16x12mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1227 Time(s)

1 (2).jpg



1.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 16x12mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1227 Time(s)

1.jpg



2 (1).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 17x9mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1226 Time(s)

2 (1).jpg



2 (2).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 17x9mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1225 Time(s)

2 (2).jpg



2.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 17x9mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1226 Time(s)

2.jpg



3 (1).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 20x12mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1225 Time(s)

3 (1).jpg



3 (2).jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 20x12mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1227 Time(s)

3 (2).jpg



3.jpg
 Mineral: Quartz
 Locality:
Alatau, Bashkortostan Republic, Southern Urals, Urals Region, Russia
 Dimensions: 20x12mm
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Y-shape
Double terminated
 Viewed:  1226 Time(s)

3.jpg



Japan.jpg
 Description:
Japan Law Twin
Schematic drawing
Lines show parallel edges (zone vectors). Crosses are parallel faces.
 Viewed:  1228 Time(s)

Japan.jpg


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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Oct 31, 2017 06:01    Post subject: Re: Rarest quartz twins with inclined axes C  

Hi Reef,

Please use the pull-down list when you add images. Up to know we are doing it for you but is a lot of work for us.

To know how it works please use: New Data Base of localities within the FMF!
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