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What is it? Sapphire or not?
  
  Index -> What is it? - Where is it from?
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Quelyone




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PostPosted: Oct 29, 2017 20:39    Post subject: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

Hi.
First of all – I apologize for my poor language. This is not my first language and I have some difficulty writing in English. Internet dictionary is a big help here, so feel free to respond as you would like.

I have read a topic called ”What is this?/Where is it from?”, but unfortunately list below contains all information that I can give because I’m limited by my lack of knowledge about language/minerals.

Locality: India

Colour: Dark Grey and Deep Blue

Hardness: More than 7 ( I scratched quartz crystal without damage on “sapphire”.)

Stone comes from the auction of a person who knows about minerals just as little as I do. He claims it is a natural sapphire, but he is not experienced just like me. I know that there is a lot of fake sapphire’s coming out from India and I would really appreciate any opinions that comes to your mind about this one, guys.

I really like the colour of this stone and even if it is not sapphire I would be really glad if you guys could tell me what is it or at least some possibilities of what it looks like for you.

I’m really afraid of the possibility that this is some blend of some dye and other minerals with corundum and not an actual natural stone. I really want to know as much as I can, because I love this little stone.
Other mineral's dealer told me that it doesn't look real and I'm concerned that maybe he is right. I'm new in this amazing hobby.

So the questions are:

Is there any way to check that it is real without damaging it?

Does it look real?

That’s it. Please, forgive me If I violated any of the forum rules. It is quite a challenge for me to write in a language different than Polish and on the English forum .

Feel free to write any response that comes to your mind.



1f42428f44fa882aee756bb92eb15 INDIE (2).jpg
 Description:
India
50 X 45 X 25 mm 90 g
 Viewed:  1038 Time(s)

1f42428f44fa882aee756bb92eb15 INDIE (2).jpg



2f42428f44fa882aee756bb92eb15 INDIE (1).jpg
 Description:
India
50 X 45 X 25 mm 90 g
 Viewed:  1040 Time(s)

2f42428f44fa882aee756bb92eb15 INDIE (1).jpg


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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 01:21    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

Thanks for trying to provide as much information as you could. However, this is a cut stone and this forum usually only deals with minerals in their natural form [not cut]. That said, sometimes people will try to help out anyway - but a jewelry forum might be better or visiting a jeweler or jewelry club or gemmological society.. To me it doesn't look like sapphire - not any I've seen. There are some dark sapphires from India, but not sure they are darker than brown, and again I find the inclusions odd. A density test would likely be the next step and matching against the list of minerals in that hardness range. Doing a hardness test one should not only try to scratch A with B, but also see if B will scratch A to really be sure of the hardness range. You need to test it against topaz, not just quartz. IIf it really will not scratch corundum of any color, but corundum will scratch it, then it is most likely of hardness 8 [not corundum and thus not sapphire]. Look through lists of Hardness 8 minerals that might match it - but cut stones don't look like natural stones very much.

Corundum:
Colors: blue, red, pink, yellow, grey, golden-brown
Lustre: Adamantine, Vitreous, Pearly
Hardness: 9
Specific Gravity: 3.98 - 4.1

The blue gem variety is called sapphire. In your photo it looks black to me, not blue, but that could be the photo. Also, it doesn't seem translucent, so not gemmy. I think you need to know its specific gravity and better what its hardness is.
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SteveB




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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 03:20    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

100% NOT sapphire. Definition of sapphire is a transparent (Gem quality, not shape) for of corundum. Sapphire IS corundum, and at beat thats what it is. Its basically worthless if you were thinking it would be an investment. A lot of jewellery stones require clarity and colour as part of determining if a stone is the common worthless form of the mineral or the gem grade valuable kind. The colour of your stone is meaningless anyway as it has zero clarity and by definition can absolutely NOT be a sapphire. Many people misrepresent corundum crystals as sapphire, beryls s emeralds, and zircons as rubies and sapphires. You can get hardness scribes that let you test hardnesses including 9, its more accurate than rough guessing from other sets.


It looks like maybe something igneous or manmade, certains not a from a natural crystal I dont think. I’ve never see any crystal grow naturally so homogenously full of “grit”. Inclusions in crystals tend to themselves be growing. A a guess I’d say someone took the sludge from a rock tumbler (tumbling grits are usually corundum) and stuck it in a furnace then cut the stome from the result, it’ll have the hardness of corundum from al the grit pieces and the intermidetaite matrix is likely quartz.
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 03:43    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

The other responders were perhaps a little harsh. I have no problem with the submission of cut stones for identification. Often a polished surface is more informative than a broken one. And you are not asking for an evaluation, something that you will not find here. I find your cut stone very interesting. I agree that it is not, by definition, a sapphire, but it may be far from worthless. I have never seen anything like your stone and I am very familiar with minerals from India. The possibility that it is not natural is very real. The inclusions are odd and, unfortunately, they do not help in identifying your stone. That being the case I hope you can find someone to help you gather more physical and optical information that could lead to a proper identification.
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 04:23    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

As well said Pete Richards in FMF is a Forum about minerals :
"Rocks and minerals are objects, the composition or appearance of which by definition were not influenced by human intervention. Most inexpensive ornamental objects and gems in inexpensive jewelry are man-made. These are not minerals, and are things we cannot comment on in any useful way"

The problem with this kind of requests is that, as it happened many times in the past, if we allow them, very soon we will be flooded with similar questions, many times no so kindly and properly explained as "Quelyone" did, and the end of this process is that all administrators (and myself ;-) we becomes overwhelmed for too many questions of something that is not directly related with the purposes of this Mineral Forum.

The net is full of forums related with jewelry, so I believe that is better let them do his job, and keep here our mineralogical features.
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Vinoterapia




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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 09:02    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

The fair amount of "inclusions" makes me think of a rock, rather than a mineral. It might be some sort of devitrified obsidian, but lets see if someone else with more experience in this kind of process (devitrification in volcanic rocks) can add some more information.
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Riccardo Modanesi




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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 11:58    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

Hi to everybody!
It looks like corundum! I can add some more datas: refraction indexes 1.762 to 1.770, double refractivity 0.008 to 0.009 (negative, uniaxial).
Greetinge from Italy by Riccardo.

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Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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Quelyone




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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 13:25    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

Quote:

Thanks for trying to provide as much information as you could. However, this is a cut stone and this forum usually only deals with minerals in their natural form [not cut].


I apologize for this. Didn’t know that cut stones are not for this forum.

Quote:
That said, sometimes people will try to help out anyway - but a jewelry forum might be better or visiting a jeweler or jewelry club or gemmological society


I appreciate all the help I get here. Thank you for your advice, I will try to find out some jewerly forum then or gemmological society, but since I posted here already, I will wait, and see, if this is not a problem.

Quote:
To me it doesn't look like sapphire - not any I've seen. There are some dark sapphires from India, but not sure they are darker than brown, and again I find the inclusions odd.


To be honest I don't care at all about this stone being sapphire or not. I love it. All I care about is finding out that is it a natural stone ( I know its cut unfortunately, yet mineral is a mineral ) or something that was made to imitate mineral. My knowledge is far to little to find out as myself only.

Quote:
Doing a hardness test one should not only try to scratch A with B, but also see if B will scratch A to really be sure of the hardness range


Ah, I didn't know that. I will test it later.

Quote:
A to really be sure of the hardness range. You need to test it against topaz, not just quartz. IIf it really will not scratch corundum of any color, but corundum will scratch it, then it is most likely of hardness 8 [not corundum and thus not sapphire]. Look through lists of Hardness 8 minerals that might match it - but cut stones don't look like natural stones very much.


I don't have any topaz in my collection, so for now effect of this test will remain as unknown.

Quote:
The blue gem variety is called sapphire. In your photo it looks black to me, not blue, but that could be the photo. Also, it doesn't seem translucent, so not gemmy. I think you need to know its specific gravity and better what its hardness is.


I think that this stone is not a sapphire too. As far, as I can remember in real life at day stone in second photo is more brighter - it is really dark blue colour and a little of grey, but side from the first photo is only dark grey.

Quote:
100% NOT sapphire. Definition of sapphire is a transparent (Gem quality, not shape) for of corundum. Sapphire IS corundum, and at beat thats what it is. Its basically worthless if you were thinking it would be an investment. A lot of jewellery stones require clarity and colour as part of determining if a stone is the common worthless form of the mineral or the gem grade valuable kind.


As i said I don't really care what stone is it, as long as it is a stone, not something that was man-made. Finding out what kind of thing this really is, is now my little personal quest. And no. I didn't buy it to be an investment. I love collecting minerals, because they are so unique and different from each other and simply beautiful.

Quote:
The colour of your stone is meaningless anyway as it has zero clarity and by definition can absolutely NOT be a sapphire. Many people misrepresent corundum crystals as sapphire, beryls s emeralds, and zircons as rubies and sapphires. You can get hardness scribes that let you test hardnesses including 9, its more accurate than rough guessing from other sets.


Okay, so we now know for sure it is not a sapphire. I think that visiting gemologist is the only way to know for sure what is this.

Quote:
It looks like maybe something igneous or manmade, certains not a from a natural crystal I dont think. I’ve never see any crystal grow naturally so homogenously full of “grit”. Inclusions in crystals tend to themselves be growing. A a guess I’d say someone took the sludge from a rock tumbler (tumbling grits are usually corundum) and stuck it in a furnace then cut the stome from the result, it’ll have the hardness of corundum from al the grit pieces and the intermidetaite matrix is likely quartz.


Thank you for your opinion. There were a lot of words that I don't know in English. I translated them in dictionary but I don't know if I understand 100%. To be honest I hope you are not right, I don't like man-made minerals and it would be the worst case scenario for me, but if this is the true I will be okay with it. Knowing truth is most important for me. I don't want to see this rock as something that it is not. And this is not a sapphire definitely so it's good that one of possibility is out.

Quote:
The other responders were perhaps a little harsh.


It's okay, maybe there were some little differences but they all happened because of a little misunderstanding... I think. I just feel strange talking in different language and have some problems with expressing myself and understanding, but I'm trying my best.

Quote:
I have no problem with the submission of cut stones for identification. Often a polished surface is more informative than a broken one.


Thank you. :) I know about minerals just a little. I'm new in this hobby and I definitely won't quit it. I always loved stones, but only recently I'm able to buy them and collect.

Quote:
And you are not asking for an evaluation, something that you will not find here.


I don't know if I understand what do you mean, but if I do - I don't want to evaluate this stone worth, because I don't care really about money and I don't want to sell it. Finding out what kind of stone is for me a priority, because I really like this mineral.

Quote:

I find your cut stone very interesting. I agree that it is not, by definition, a sapphire, but it may be far from worthless. I have never seen anything like your stone and I am very familiar with minerals from India. The possibility that it is not natural is very real. The inclusions are odd and, unfortunately, they do not help in identifying your stone


I find them interesting also. I have totally no idea what is it too, but I'm new. I really hope this is a stone, not a man-made thing, but I will accept the truth, whatever it will be. These inclusions in real life are similar to those captured in photo. It may be strange comparison, but they look in real life like snow, that this falling down from the sky at winter. They don't look like bubbles.

Quote:

That being the case I hope you can find someone to help you gather more physical and optical information that could lead to a proper identification.


In future I will definitely visit gemologist, but I can't do it by my own. I suffer neurosis sickness and going out to big city with it is to big challenge for me. I will try to convince my father to do it for me, and when results would be clear, I will definitely post it here, if you guys want to know.

Quote:

As well said Pete Richards in FMF is a Forum about minerals :
"Rocks and minerals are objects, the composition or appearance of which by definition were not influenced by human intervention. Most inexpensive ornamental objects and gems in inexpensive jewelry are man-made. These are not minerals, and are things we cannot comment on in any useful way"

The problem with this kind of requests is that, as it happened many times in the past, if we allow them, very soon we will be flooded with similar questions, many times no so kindly and properly explained as "Quelyone" did, and the end of this process is that all administrators (and myself ;-) we becomes overwhelmed for too many questions of something that is not directly related with the purposes of this Mineral Forum.

The net is full of forums related with jewelry, so I believe that is better let them do his job, and keep here our mineralogical features.


I really didn't know that I will violate rules of this forum by posting this topic. I apologize for this. I only ask for giving me a little of time and after answer is known, or not, the topic can be deleted. I will start looking forum related with cut minerals if you wan't this topic to be deleted sooner, but please, give me an answer so I will have the time to copy properly what I wrote here and the replies. I really didn't want to breake any rules.

Quote:

The fair amount of "inclusions" makes me think of a rock, rather than a mineral. It might be some sort of devitrified obsidian, but lets see if someone else with more experience in this kind of process (devitrification in volcanic rocks) can add some more information.

These inclusions reminds me of snow. They look really similar. I don't know if that helps, but I will give all the info that I can.

Quote:

PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 11:58 Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?
Hi to everybody!
It looks like corundum! I can add some more datas: refraction indexes 1.762 to 1.770, double refractivity 0.008 to 0.009 (negative, uniaxial).
Greetinge from Italy by Riccardo.


Hi Riccardo!

I'm a little confused now. Almost all opinions claimed it is not a sapphire, but I know almost nothing about sapphires so I don't know what to say. Sapphire is a corundum, right? Can corundum not be a sapphire or ruby? I really don't know.

Okay.

About this stone. I put it into water last night. I asked one person who sales minerals and he told me that if this is dyed stone after a day in water I should rub it with white paper, then paper will change the colour.

I apologize for my language. I'm trying my best to write what I think but it's hard, because I now little about minerals and English language, so please, don't be harsh to me if I sound strange.
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Oct 30, 2017 20:54    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

Corundum is a mineral. Ruby and sapphire are colored varieties of gem corundum and these designations are often used inappropriately for purposes of selling stones that are not really gem quality. Most corundum occurs in crystals that are not transparent and attractively colored and they are worthless as gems. They can, however, probably have some modest value as mineral specimens.

I see no reason to believe that your stone is dyed. What is odd about your stone is not the color because its color is not really attractive. What is odd are the inclusions which do not resemble any that I have seen in a rock or a crystal. That is why I suspect that it is manmade.

I very much disagree with my friend Jordi about this Forum not being the right place for your inquiry and I do not believe that a gem forum will be better equipped to try to determine what your stone is. I hope that he does not block further posts.

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DoveOfLight




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PostPosted: Nov 07, 2017 23:36    Post subject: Re: What is it? Sapphire or not?  

I would say Not sapphire. Possibly corundum, in that it reminds me of cobalt-coloured lead glass filled. (Super Diffusion Tanusorn) But with that being said its just a guess off the picture. So in other words I would suggest it is not in its natural form or state.
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