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Baryte vs. Baryte
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keldjarn




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PostPosted: Apr 16, 2009 06:45    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

John,
"rationality" is also a question of perspective and context. I see no problem in having a standardised IMA-list of mineral names and spelling to be used in English texts in i.e. scientific journals. But Jordi`s simplistic approach to the conversion of mineral names to Spanish creates new problems. Every language has a scientific (linguistic) basis for the creating, spelling and pronounciation of words - also when imported from other languages i.e. technical, scientific or geographical names. In many cases common rules may exist i.e. the addition of "-itt" instead of "-ite" in mineral names in Norwegian. But every language will have exceptions from the "rules" as a result of either linguistic or historical traditions. The incorporation and active use of new technical and scientific words in a way that is compatible with the linguistic structure of the language is also a relevant issue of maybe greater importance than the need for a strictly defined similarity in the spelling of mineral names in a small mineral-oriented community. In many countries (i.e. Norway) there exist more or less official lists with the correct spelling in Norwegian of names of minerals, animals, diseases etc. when used in a Norwegian text.
Also a number of EU Commission Directives and National laws require instructions for use with numerous types of products in the national language where a transformation also of chemical names, mineral names and other "scientifically standardised" names to the correct form compatible with the language in use may be of importance to avoid misunderstandings. It can be of vital importance that the spelling also results in a pronounciation of the name or word in a way which is easy to recognize.
A simple example to illustrate the complexities involved. The periodic table of elements and the name of the elements have an established international standardisation. The element K is Kalium and there should be many good reasons for abolishing the use of "Potassium" in English. But a very strong linguistic traditon would probably jeopardize many initensive care patients if doctors started prescribing intravenous "Kalium" because it would easily be confused with "Calcium" - a mistake that could kill the patient.

I am personally a strong supporter of international standardisation and have been engaged in such activities in other areas than mineralogy. But I also recognize the complexity of the issues involved especially related to the need also for other languages than English to evolve and adobt new words into the language based on its own linguistic traditions.

Knut
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alfredo
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PostPosted: Apr 16, 2009 21:15    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

I find myself agreeing with Knut that the important part of mineralogy as a science is the structure and chemistry; the naming part is of secondary importance (and perhaps more of a sociological than a mineralogical phenomenon). There is far too much fear that variance in names will "confuse the beginners" - I have more faith in the intelligence of "beginners" - they'll quickly learn, just like we did, that phosphophyllite and fosfofilita, and barytes and Baryte, are exactly the same species.

And Jordi, you need to have more confidence in the intelligence of Spanish collectors! There is no need to slavishly adhere to english spellings in the spanish language. Other languages don't do that, so why spanish? Potassichastingsite is Kaliumhastingsit in german, and karihesuchingususenseki in japanese, and that situation doesn't seem to cause them any problems whatsoever.

Germans have the Lapis species list in german (which I think is updated more often than Fleischers). If such a list does not exist in spanish yet, perhaps Fabre Minerals should publish one. I'm sure the spanish-speaking market is large enough to make such a venture economically viable. Spain supports at least two mineral journals, so there must be enough commercial demand for a published species list. If publishing it on paper is not economically viable, how about an online version? ...on the Fabre website, if no one else wants to do it ;-))
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2009 04:36    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

I am not certain of this but I suspect that the majority of Jordi's customers are not Spanish, therefore it seems to me to make sense to standardize one's labels so that multiple labels are not required. By default, English appears to have become the universal language. We who speak it did not make tht choice, it just happened.
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keldjarn




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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2009 06:46    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

In relation to private mineral collections and dealers` labels, I see no problem if one chooses to use English. The problem I have encountered in other scientific areas ( nomenclature in biochemistry and biotechnology) is that if professionals in the field decide to use only English terminology, the terminology in national languages will be created by lawyers and bureaucrats - which can be very unfortunate ! And there is a need also for using mineral names in many other contexts than can be imagined by mineralogists. And the view that English is an "universal language" is a true misconception shared only by English speaking people and a small professional elite working in an environment where English is widely used. You will never see national laws and regulations i.e. on asbestos minerals without the need to define these substances and name them in a text in the native language. The same is the case for the regulation, documentation, statistics etc of mining and trade in mineral raw materials. In a number of related scientific areas - i.e. environmental medicine, I have experienced great problems relating exposure to mineral hazards to the actual minerals in question when the articles or reports have been written by non-mineralogists. This is especially true when other languages than English have been used. I think the mineral community and mineralogists have a responsibility to ensure that sensible naming of minerals are in place in their respective languages - and this is not only a question of English. Therefore a list of recommended or approved mineral names to be used in Spanish should be available - especially for non-mineralogists as is the case in many other languages i.e. Norwegian, German, Russian etc.
Knut
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Tracy




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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2009 07:36    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Forgive the slight digression, but - Knut, do you practice environmental medicine? And in your previous two postings are you making references to the regulatory requirements of REACH/GHS? If so, please email me at balagan29atyahoodotcom, I'd love to know more about what you do (I'm an occupational toxicologist).

I was going to post yesterday about how initiatives are in place to globally harmonize hazard classification and labeling of chemicals, as well as drug names (aspirin is no longer aspirin but instead it is "ASA," epinephrine if I remember right is to be used in place of adrenaline from now on). Who's to say that a global harmonization system for minerals won't follow suit? It might be a while coming, but I can easily envision a time when it finally does arrive (or at least where everybody starts arguing over which naming system should be adopted). Personally I think "Baryte" vs "baryte" is a cosmetic issue just like sulfur vs sulphur, easily resolved if not having been so heavily ingrained culturally. I'm not advocating English, either British or Ameican as the "best" language to use, but if has such universal popularity/familiarity...? This might be a place to start.

- Tracy

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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2009 11:06    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Hi Jordi,

If you are worried with translations, why don't you put a list on your site with the IMA "English" name and the Spanish regular one ?

I quickly searched the net for such list but found nothing. Might worth a try ?

Christophe
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2009 15:07    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Currently I'm in a place where I have a very bad connection and not too much free time. Monday I will be back to this topic.

Jordi
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alfredo
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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2009 21:32    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

I agree with Knut again, that although english is undoubtedly the most important language in science, the actual extent of its dominance is quite exaggerated in the minds of english speakers, for whom it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they avoid venues where english is not used. I even think that in the amateur mineralogy field, for collectors, there is more published in german than in english!

Another example is Japan, a country engaged in an enormous number of high-tech mineralogical studies (they do afterall manufacture most of our microscopes and x-ray equipment), an active and very well educated amateur community, and unfortunately, because of the language barrier, little contact with the outside world - only a tiny percentage feel comfortable speaking english.

As for Jordi's business, I'm agree he must sell more to english speakers than to spanish speakers, and he must therefore of necessity have an english language website, but the argument was about how he writes mineral names in spanish, not about the names he writes in english. Writing "spanish" mineral names by copying Fleischers and just changing the final "e" to "a", like "phosphophyllita" or "pyrargyrita" is neither english nor spanish, but a weird hybrid that will please nobody.
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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Apr 18, 2009 03:48    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Alfredo,

I always enjoy reading your posts. But right now I've been also reading for the second time the 'Biography' page at your website:
https://www.petrovrareminerals.com
(link normalized by FMF)
and I couldn't help laughing out loud. Great!

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PostPosted: Apr 20, 2009 10:40    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Alfredo,

You are right, I'm using neither English nor Spanish, but a weird hybrid, but at least I use an "IMA accepted" hybrid. ;-)
I disagree that this will please nobody, I use this "trick" for long long time, and English speakers seems to accept this well and most Spanish speakers too.

Considering the fact that I have not the human ability to change the names of all my labels according if I assist to a Spanish or to an International Show, what I can do?.
I'm considering seriously to write all my labels just on English language to avoid troubles, but then I'm sure that the Spanish customers will complain.

Some suggestion?

Jordi
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PostPosted: Apr 20, 2009 11:02    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Jordi, a suggestion: Leave the current labels as they are; don't bother to rewrite them.
Future labels: When the mineral name is very similar in both languages (only terminal a/e difference), use english. When the names are different, like gypsum/yeso or phosphophyllite/fosfofilita, make a bilingual label with both names on it. I do it this way when I'm selling minerals in Japan, but I have to confess that I'm not consistent about it.

By the way, just for curiosity, do any dealers in Spain write labels in catalan? Do you ever see "atzurita" on a label, or is it always "azurita" at spanish shows? (I hope this question doesn't incite a civil war.)

Alfredo
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PostPosted: Apr 20, 2009 11:21    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Hello Jordi,

You are in the business of selling mineral specimens for a living, so you must decide what works best for your customer base, which I am sure is quite international. One of the things I personally enjoy about the international nature of the mineral collector community is being able to learn something about other cultures and languages through our shared interests. While it is doubtful that I will become highly fluent in too many languages during my time, I enjoy learning things like the fact that in French "fluorine" means the mineral, not the element, and that the German name is "flusspat." In both cases the modern name "fluorite/fluorit" has superseded these traditional names but that doesn't look to have driven them from common usage.

I can see the need for some sort of standard language now that the whole world is potentially connected via the internet. Unfortunately for many, English seems to have become the "default" language. English is, however, quite a "mongrel" in that it is made up of bits and pieces of a number of other languages, without much apparent reason behind how it was done. I have no idea why we need "ph" to make the sound of an "f" and would happily vote to do away with it. After all, we've successfully changed "sulphur" to "sulfur," so why not the rest of it? Unfortunately, us English speakers do not have L'Acadamie to tell us how the language should be spoken and written, just the OED to record it. On the bright side, anyone unfamiliar with English will at least not be faced with knowing whether phosphophyllite is masculine of feminine.

All languages (at least those in common usage) are dynamic and changes in usage occur constantly, based on the current needs of those using it. Perhaps the fact that you feel the need to adopt a hybrid spelling on your labels so to make them more understandable to your non-Spanish customers is just another example of the sort of thing that causes languages to change.

Cheers,
Jesse
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PostPosted: May 06, 2009 03:37    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Alfredo wrote:
>By the way, just for curiosity, do any dealers in Spain write labels in catalan? Do you ever see "atzurita" on a label, or is it always "azurita" at spanish shows? (I hope this question doesn't incite a civil war.)

Alfredo,

The Catalan-Spanish language's relationship is something very delicate and complex. As you can read so well Spanish language, I suggest to you to read this recent topic in the Spanish Forum: https://www.foro-minerales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2323 and you will have a very clear idea about how is the situation currently.

Jordi
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Konstantinos Ch.




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PostPosted: Mar 03, 2010 01:47    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Hi all!

Sorry,I couldn't resist :)

Baryte is Latin.Comes from Greek .Baros in Greek means weight.Barys is male for heavy.

When a composite word (a word that consists of more than one words) is composed we use a term-element for the first word(s).

Respectively,Bar- is the term-element for Baros (weight) and Bary- is the term-element for Barys (heavy).

Bar-ium, a chemistry element that has high weight.

Bary-te,a mineral species that is heavy.

Why the confusion with Baryte?Just my opinion:

Y (called Ygrek in Latin or Greek "Y") and I are two letters that sound exactly the same in Greek language and in many other languages.

In Greek,the multiple different letter sharing the same sound help the reader understand which word a given word derives from and that's etymology. It's the way Greek has economy.

I feel the correct is Baryte.

All the best!
-Kostas.
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Gail




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PostPosted: Mar 03, 2010 08:18    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

My British friends spell it Baryte, my American friends spell it Baryte. Bottom line is that I know what they are referring to. Communication is complete, no further action necessary.
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PostPosted: Mar 07, 2010 10:35    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Gail wrote:
My British friends spell it Baryte, my American friends spell it Baryte. Bottom line is that I know what they are referring to. Communication is complete, no further action necessary.

Gail,

I am who started this topic just to solve a doubt I had. But in the end I agree with you. No matter one writes Baryte and others baryte. Many of us Catalans still use our traditional name "baritina", which is not standard, but everybody understands.

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PostPosted: Mar 07, 2010 21:04    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Bolivians call it "baritina" too.
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PostPosted: Mar 08, 2010 02:08    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

alfredo wrote:
Bolivians call it "baritina" too.

Alfredo,

Glad to hear from you!

Although that name ("baritina") might not be nowadays scientifically correct, the Spanish, Romanian and Catalan Wikipedias still take it as the main name, being "barita" a side form. The Italian Wikipedia, however, considers "baritina" deprecated.

I remember saying and writing "baritina" all my life in my native Catalan until switching to "barita" rather recently, but I think in the Romance languages there is no possibility of using the letter "Y" in that name, as it is in British English and German.

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PostPosted: Mar 08, 2010 11:29    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

In French, it is "barytine."
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PostPosted: Aug 21, 2010 06:50    Post subject: Re: Baryte vs. Baryte  

Carles Millan wrote:
Hi! I'm not a native English speaker, so I start this topic only for informative purposes. Just to learn. I wonder why the most common species containing calcium is named calcite and the simpler mineral with magnesium is known as magnesite, but the same rule does not apply to barium: the barium sulphate is the baryte, with Y. Does anyone know the reason for breaking such rule? A rule that is not met by everybody...

I know this topic is old but i just want to admit that German, like English, also breaks this "rule" of mineral nomenclature:

Antimon > Antimonit
Calcium > Calcit
Fluor > Fluorit
Magnesium > Magnesit
Mangan > Manganit
Molybdän > Molybdänit
Tellur > Tellurit
Titan > Titanit
Vanadium > Vanadinit
Wolfram (Tungsten) > Wolframit
but:
Barium > Baryt
(Even Superman has his Kryptonit in German ;-))

I even think that Baryt is the only mineral which's German name ends on -yt. Any of the other German collectors may correct me if i'm wrong.

Cheers!
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