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Hiddenite?
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RickW




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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 18:13    Post subject: Hiddenite?  

On family land in western North Carolina we found this in a stream recently. Curious about what it could be besides hidenite? I have additional photos. Measures about 2.3 inches x 2 inches x 1.5 iinches.


received_379700119172696.jpeg
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63mm x 50mm x 38mm
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 18:14    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

2nd photo


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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 18:15    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

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John S. White
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 20:41    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

Definitely not hiddenite. What comes to mind are beryl and green glass. Did you polish this?
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 20:53    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

No, it was in a stream bed.
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 20:54    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

That would be a pretty big chunk of green glass. Small pieces of hiddenite have been found in that area of western NC in the past.
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 20:58    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

That would be a pretty big piece of hiddenite, too!
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 21:16    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

I agree but bigger have been found in western NC
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 22:17    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

looks like fluorite - can you scratch it with a knife blade?
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 22:24    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

Not at all. It does not scratch
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 22:26    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

It was found in a creek bed and who knows how long it was in there up in the mountains on our land. I believe years of being in the water smoothed it some.
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 23:47    Post subject: Re: Hidenite?  

On the right side of the last picture it looks like your piece has a flat surface which suggests either a growth or cleavage face. Is this correct? If so, then it is not glass, and I'd say what you have looks interesting enough to me that I would take it to a local college/university geology department, rock shop, or rock hounding club and show it around. Locals will have the best idea of the stuff found locally.

As far as getting more informed comments from us, I'd suggest you:

1) Take more pictures from different angles so we can see if you really have any growth/cleavage faces, and maybe suss out the crystal habit.

2) Do a specific gravity test. (If you take it to a local college geology dept, they can do this more precisely that you can do at home.)

Specific gravity is the density of a specimen relative to water.

To measure specific gravity at home, all you need is a scale that is accurate over the relevant weight. A good method can be found here http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=38375#38375

If you want to use a lower-tech, less accurate, more brute force method, you can:

1) Measure the volume of the specimen with just a measuring cup.
i) put water in a measuring cup to a level higher than the size of the specimen.
ii) place the specimen in the cup with the water.
iii) measure the volume increase by how high the water rose in the measuring cup. The difference between the water volume before you added the rock and after you added the rock is the volume of the rock.
iv) convert this volume measurement to cubic centimeters.

2) Weigh the specimen. Convert this weight to grams.

3) Determine the specific gravity.
Water has a specific gravity of 1, and it weighs 1 g/cc. If your specimen weighs 4 grams and occupies a volume of 1.4 cubic centimeters, then its density in g/cc is 4/1.4 or 2.85 g/cc. Such a rock has a specific gravity of 2.85.

At home, I have a laboratory beaker and graduated cylinder. This allows me to get a more accurate measurement of the volume of the specimen, as follows:
a) Fill a beaker with water to one of the graduations so you know pretty accurately how much water is in the beaker.
b) put the specimen in the beaker.
c) fill a graduated cylinder with water up to its top graduation. Now you know exactly how much water is in the graduated cylinder.
d) pour water out of the graduated cylinder into the beaker so the water level rises to the next higher graduation on the beaker that also submerges the specimen. Note how much water was poured out of the graduate cylinder (initial water level minus final water level).
e) the volume of the specimen is equal to the higher graduation in the beaker (measured in step d)) minus the volume of water poured out of the graduated cylinder (step d)) minus the water that was in the beaker before you added the specimen (step a)).
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PostPosted: Mar 22, 2018 23:51    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Hiddenite is not found in western N.C. This is NOT hiddenite. It does not even vaguely resemble hiddenite.
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RickW




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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 00:16    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Hiddenite is not found in western NC? That's curious since hiddenite was first discovered in western North Carolina. There's actually a city named Hiddenite in western NC.


I was thinking it could be Hiddenite because there are not many different green gems found in western NC
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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 01:10    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Thanks for the information Matt. Here are a few additional photos. I'm in Maryland and my mom is in NC. She found this about 15 years ago in the stream bed and had it in her spare room. We were cleaning it out and found it. She didn't think anything of it. Our property is in the mountains north-west of Asheville NC. We have over 100 acres and most of the mountain. It's not a developed area and I could be wrong but I don't know of any glass products made this thick. The smooth sides I thought (I could be wrong) could have been smoothed down with who knows how many years of water running over them. It was in a very dense area of the woods in the stream not far from the Blue Ridge Mountains and a national park.


Matt_Zukowski wrote:
On the right side of the last picture it looks like your piece has a flat surface which suggests either a growth or cleavage face. Is this correct? If so, then it is not glass, and I'd say what you have looks interesting enough to me that i'd take it to a local college/university geology dept, rock shop, or rock hounding club and show it around. Locals will have the best idea of the stuff found locally.

As far as getting more informed comments from us, I'd suggest you:

1) Take more pictures from different angles so we can see if you really have any growth/cleavage faces, and maybe suss out the crystal habit.

2) Do a specific gravity test. (If you take it to a local college geol dept, they can do this more precisely that you can do at home.)

Specific gravity is the density of a specimen relative to water.

To measure specific gravity at home, all you need is a scale that is accurate over the relevant weight. A good method can be found here http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=38375#38375

If you want to use a lower-tech, less accurate, more brute force method, you can:

1) Measure the volume of the specimen with just a measuring cup.
i) put water in a measuring cup to a level higher than the size of the specimen.
ii) place the specimen in the cup with the water.
iii) measure the volume increase by how high the water rose in the measuring cup. The difference between the water volume before you added the rock and after you added the rock is the volume of the rock.
iv) convert this volume measurement to cubic centimeters.

2) Weigh the specimen. Convert this weight to grams.

3) Determine the specific gravity.
Water has a specific gravity of 1, and it weighs 1 g/cc. If your specimen weighs 4 grams and occupies a volume of 1.4 cubic centimeters, then its density in g/cc is 4/1.4 or 2.85 g/cc. Such a rock has a specific gravity of 2.85.

At home, I have a laboratory beaker and graduated cylinder. This allows me to get a more accurate measurement of the volume of the specimen, as follows:
a) Fill a beaker with water to one of the graduations so you know pretty accurately how much water is in the beaker.
b) put the specimen in the beaker.
c) fill a graduated cylinder with water up to its top graduation. Now you know exactly how much water is in the graduated cylinder.
d) pour water out of the graduated cylinder into the beaker so the water level rises to the next higher graduation on the beaker that also submerges the specimen. Note how much water was poured out of the graduate cylinder (initial water level minus final water level).
e) the volume of the specimen is equal to the higher graduation in the beaker (measured in step d)) minus the volume of water poured out of the graduated cylinder (step d)) minus the water that was in the beaker before you added the specimen (step a)).



29019978_379699382506103_1838781340_n.jpg
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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 01:11    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Another photo


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Matt_Zukowski
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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 01:27    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

The right side of your last photo again looks *something* like a flat cleavage/growth face, but less so than I thought before. This could well be a chunk of old glass. I think if you want any more info from us please give us the specific gravity. Otherwise, you should seek local help as I said above.

Good luck.
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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 01:40    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Matt,
Again Thank you for your information. I'm in Maryland but I am finding a reputable connection for my sister to visit Saturday. Looking at the pictures I could see where someone would think it's a hunk of glass but I've been around for over 50 years and never seen a hunk of glass like that. Not with the feel of it the size and thickness and the deep colors of green and yellow in different areas of it. There have also been smaller Hiddenite stones found in the area so it's not out of the realm of possibilities. I'll let you all know about the specific gravity if I can explain it to my mom and sister how to do it and what the gem expert in Asheville tells her.

John White
While I appreciate any input from anyone and I don't want to offend anyone. Hiddenite is found in Western North Carolina and I don't understand when you keep saying it looks nothing like Hiddenite. In the attached photo the top row is the item we found. The bottom row is Hiddenite from Western North Carolina and a few from Afghanistan. Photos like those lead me to think it could be Hiddenite. You may know much more than me on the subject and maybe you can point out by the pictures why it looks nothing like Hiddenite but I can't see it. Also, realize the photos my mom took (she's 72) are with an Ipad and the other ones are more professional. Lighting and best angle are not her strong suit.



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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 02:34    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Old glass
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PostPosted: Mar 23, 2018 04:21    Post subject: Re: Hiddenite?  

Matt

I use your brute force method for large specimens, I aded it to the end of page you sent as a link

James

Matt_Zukowski wrote:

If you want to use a lower-tech, less accurate, more brute force method, you can:

1) Measure the volume of the specimen with just a measuring cup.
i) put water in a measuring cup to a level higher than the size of the specimen.
ii) place the specimen in the cup with the water.
iii) measure the volume increase by how high the water rose in the measuring cup. The difference between the water volume before you added the rock and after you added the rock is the volume of the rock.
iv) convert this volume measurement to cubic centimeters.

2) Weigh the specimen. Convert this weight to grams.

3) Determine the specific gravity.
Water has a specific gravity of 1, and it weighs 1 g/cc. If your specimen weighs 4 grams and occupies a volume of 1.4 cubic centimeters, then its density in g/cc is 4/1.4 or 2.85 g/cc. Such a rock has a specific gravity of 2.85.

At home, I have a laboratory beaker and graduated cylinder. This allows me to get a more accurate measurement of the volume of the specimen, as follows:
a) Fill a beaker with water to one of the graduations so you know pretty accurately how much water is in the beaker.
b) put the specimen in the beaker.
c) fill a graduated cylinder with water up to its top graduation. Now you know exactly how much water is in the graduated cylinder.
d) pour water out of the graduated cylinder into the beaker so the water level rises to the next higher graduation on the beaker that also submerges the specimen. Note how much water was poured out of the graduate cylinder (initial water level minus final water level).
e) the volume of the specimen is equal to the higher graduation in the beaker (measured in step d)) minus the volume of water poured out of the graduated cylinder (step d)) minus the water that was in the beaker before you added the specimen (step a)).
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