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Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?
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Pablo Pereira




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PostPosted: May 07, 2019 12:50    Post subject: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Hi all

My name is Pablo Pereira. I'm a 58 y.o. fellow from Spain but living in France. I've been hunting for minerals when I was a collage student and about 12 years ago I started to collect again and to build up a collection mostly of barytes from all around the world.

Recently I got this specimen of barite from an “old collection” and I have been trying to see where it may come from without a lot of success, I must say. However the matrix looks informative to an experienced eye as it contains sulfurs (pyrite I think), bicolor fluorite.and quartz.
Any hint on where this rock may come from is highly appreciated
Pablo



P1180583 copy.jpg
 Mineral: baryte
 Locality:
[unknown locality]
 Dimensions: 9 x 8 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  2671 Time(s)

P1180583 copy.jpg



P1180575 copy.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  2665 Time(s)

P1180575 copy.jpg



P1180580 copy.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  2661 Time(s)

P1180580 copy.jpg



P1180579 copy.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  2661 Time(s)

P1180579 copy.jpg



P1180577 copy.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  2659 Time(s)

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Tobi




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PostPosted: May 07, 2019 13:02    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Hi Pablo,

I think this specimen could be from Cerro Warihuyn in Peru.

Regards
Tobi
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Kevin Schofield




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PostPosted: May 07, 2019 13:07    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Tobi wrote:
Hi Pablo,

I think this specimen could be from Cerro Warihuyn in Peru.

Regards
Tobi


that was my thought too Tobi (I was just about to post!), from the form of the baryte, but on the other hand the matrix doesn't look right, and Mindat does not mention fluorite as a mineral association at that locality...

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Tobi




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PostPosted: May 07, 2019 13:12    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

You're right, Kevin: The specimen reminded me that much of Cerro Warihuyn that I forgot the fluorite relicts on the matrix would not fit. So I have to withdraw my guess: The crystals LOOK totally like Cerro Warihuyn, but the specimen can't be from there. Sorry :-(
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PostPosted: May 07, 2019 13:26    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Tobi wrote:
You're right, Kevin: The specimen reminded me that much of Cerro Warihuyn that I forgot the fluorite relicts on the matrix would not fit. So I have to withdraw my guess: The crystals LOOK totally like Cerro Warihuyn, but the specimen can't be from there. Sorry :-(


I was also about to chime in and also say that the form of the Baryte crystals looks very similar to Barytes from Cerro Warihuyn, Peru. But the matrix, particularly the association with the zoned Fluorite crystals, isn't typical for that locality to my knowledge, so it's quite likely from somewhere else.

The Baryte crystals do have a very distinctive color, form & accessory minerals though, so I would think that someone who is more familiar with Barytes (at least compared to me) would be able to easily identify the locale.
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: May 07, 2019 14:38    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Just to chime in.

The broken portion of purple/yellow fluorite is similar to those found in the Harris Creek District of the southern Illinois fluorite district. And the fluorite does appear to be on a quartz matrix which also would fit. But the baryte, altho common in the district, is unlike any found there so I doubt very much it is from there.

The baryte looks like some found in the Nevada Mielke Mine, but fluorite has never been reported from there. So that location also doesn't fit.

I am no help!...... BOB
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Pablo Pereira




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PostPosted: May 08, 2019 05:03    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Thanks for the answers. I don't think it comes from Miraflores in Peru. I've also considered Illinois because of the zoned fluorite, but I've never seen these crystallisation of baryte coming from there.
There are few places in the world where this zoned fluorite crystals have been found and my hope was that somebody would recognise these type of crystals in regions were zoned yellow/violet fluorite crystal were found. I still have a preferred wild guess but I don't want to influence other people.
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PostPosted: May 08, 2019 19:32    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

This is a stumper. Sorry to bring this up bit is there any way it could have been faked? Have you tried to figure out if the barite has been glued onto that matrix?
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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 01:29    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Pablo from Spain but living in France - and the specimen of barite from an “old collection” - but everybody is looking for specimens from the US-market?? My first thought - check Sardinia !
regards
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Pablo Pereira




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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 01:40    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Matt_Zukowski wrote:
This is a stumper. Sorry to bring this up bit is there any way it could have been faked? Have you tried to figure out if the barite has been glued onto that matrix?


Unlikely; the yellowish material that appear in the back of the piece in the first photo next to the number, although not evident from the picture, are actually very small baryte crystal
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Pablo Pereira




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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 02:43    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Gagat Minerals wrote:
Pablo from Spain but living in France - and the specimen of barite from an “old collection” - but everybody is looking for specimens from the US-market?? My first thought - check Sardinia !
regards


The specimen is most likely european and very likely west european. Sardinia is a good candidate although I'm not aware of the existence of this type of zoned fluorite, at least on the big mines where fluorite and baryte were abundant like Santa Lucia.

I'm more inclined to think that the specimen may come from the Saxony area in Germany and I was hoping that some european expert had seen similar specimens before.

I will probably take the specimen with me to the Saint Marie aux Mines show in June and show it to my german and italian friends as well as to other experts to see if anybody can help with the location (or at least to exclude some places).

Thanks to all of you for your responses
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Tobi




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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 03:38    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

That's really a tough one ...

Sardinia could be, but I don't think it's from Saxony or from Germany at all. I also asked some other fellow collectors and sent them the photos. If any of them has a guess, I will let you know.

Tobi
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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 12:53    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

I've seen a lot of baryte since I decided to specialise in it, but I have to say I've never seen any quite like this one.

As others have mentioned, you can rule out Cerro Warihuyn, Peru based on the matrix and the zoned fluorite in it. The baryte resembles the ones from there, but the colour and habit still seem a little different.

Another that sprang to mind was the Rock Candy Mine in British Columbia due to the white quartz and fluorite (although not these exact colours), but once again the baryte morphology isn't right (it should have been diamond-shaped). For example https://www.mindat.org/photo-641211.html

Sardinia also doen't 'feel' right either. I've never seen crystals anything like this from there, let alone on matrix like this.

I wished I could be of more help, but this specimen is a total mystery to me. I really hope you find out in Sainte-Marie, and if you do please share the results with us!
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 14:59    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Reviewing this interesting specimen further, I may have found its location.

I think, in fact, it may be from the southern Illinois fluorite district.

U.S. Baryte collector Bill Dameron has submitted collection photos of several examples from the DENTON MINE, Harris Creek subdistrict in the Illinois fluorite district that have closely resembling barytes on white quartz. If you go to Mindat photo search, putting in "baryte from Illinois", there will be many, many examples. Carefully scrolling thru, you will eventually come across his example. His name is attached to his photo in the sequence.

Altho his pictured example does not show fluorite, there was so much bicolored fluorite in those Harris Creek mines, that, that doesn't deter me from making my decision. BOB
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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 15:40    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Bob Harman wrote:
Reviewing this interesting specimen further, I may have found its location.

I think, in fact, it may be from the southern Illinois fluorite district.

U.S. Baryte collector Bill Dameron has submitted collection photos of several examples from the DENTON MINE, Harris Creek subdistrict in the Illinois fluorite district that have closely resembling barytes on white quartz. If you go to Mindat photo search, putting in "baryte from Illinois", there will be many, many examples. Carefully scrolling thru, you will eventually come across his example. His name is attached to his photo in the sequence.

Altho his pictured example does not show fluorite, there was so much bicolored fluorite in those Harris Creek mines, that, that doesn't deter me from making my decision. BOB


Hi Bob
Looking on mindat for pictures of baryte associated with quartz in Illinois gives no results. I found a picture from Bill Dameron of baryte from the Denton Mine ( https://www.mindat.org/photo-475560.html) and two from Kevin Conroy ( https://www.mindat.org/photo-805798.html , https://www.mindat.org/photo-805799.html) with crystal somewhat similar to the ones in my specimen, but all of them sit on a matrix with calcite and not quartz crystals.
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PostPosted: May 09, 2019 16:10    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

YEP ! I guess you are right. Altho the barytes are similar, they do appear to sit on calcite rather than quartz. Anyway keep on hunting....... BOB
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Tobi




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PostPosted: May 10, 2019 02:54    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Given the knowledge that is gathered here, it's hard to believe that such a baryte specimen remains a mystery, but so it seems :-(

I asked some more fellow collectors, but like us, none of them could solve the riddle, though they all are very experienced collectors with outstanding knowledge about minerals and localities:
Kai Bork, though he is an advanced and extremely knowledgeable collector and dealer of international minerals had no idea except that the crystals resemble Cerro Warihuyn, but that of course the fluorite is the "problem" ...
Michael Ochel, also highly knowledgeable collector and dealer for 40 years, had no idea too, he guessed it could be from Sardinia, another idea was southern France ... but not sure ...
At least I could hear Andreas Gerstenberg's opinion about this specimen maybe being from Germany: He is agreed that this does not look like a German baryte. And his knowledge on German minerals is so exceptional that we can be sure it's not from Germany.

I wish I could have more than some guesses and the exclusion of Germany from the list of potential origin :-(

Regards
Tobi
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: May 10, 2019 16:49    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Something tells me that it could be from Silius, Sardinia, Italy, but without evidences...
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Tobi




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PostPosted: May 11, 2019 04:22    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Tobi wrote:
[...] Michael Ochel, also highly knowledgeable collector and dealer for 40 years, had no idea too, he guessed it could be from Sardinia, another idea was southern France ... but not sure [...]
Jordi Fabre wrote:
Something tells me that it could be from Silius, Sardinia, Italy, but without evidences...
That's what my fellow Michael said: He visited Sardinia some time ago and saw many great local collections there. And his comment on the baryte photos was that he saw some similiar ones that were from Silius. But like all other guesses here, he was not sure :-(

Incredible, that the locality of such an (assumedly) distinctive specimen of a very common mineral can't be answered by dozens of experienced and educated collectors :-(
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PostPosted: May 11, 2019 05:09    Post subject: Re: Any hint on the location where this baryte was mined?  

Tobi wrote:
Incredible, that the locality of such an (assumedly) distinctive specimen of a very common mineral can't be answered by dozens of experienced and educated collectors :-(


Ironically, I accepted the specimen because I was convinced that it will be easy to find the location where such distinctive specimen placed in such an informative matrix was mined.
Probably, the specimen is very old or coming from a small pocket.

I will definitively take it with me to Sainte-Marie and I will let you know if I get any useful information
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