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Locality for a Väyrynenite?
  
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James Catmur
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PostPosted: Oct 20, 2022 05:11    Post subject: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

Tobi wrote:
At https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=79610#79610 MIM Museum wrote:
Väyrynenite
Lolu Dahku Mine, Roundu Valley, Skardu District, Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan
3 x 2 x 14.5 cm / main crystal: 14.2 cm
Elegant sheaf of slender transparent crystals with a beautiful red-pink color, and perfectly terminated main crystals. Crystals of such size and transparency are unusual for this species.

What an amazing piece, I first thought this was a rubellite! I guess this is the first time in my 30 years of collecting minerals that I find a väyrynenite aesthetic. And not only aesthetic, this is a real stunner of incredible size and perfect aesthetics. Maybe the best väyrynenite ever found? For sure something most of us haven't seen before and won't see again - a striking and unique masterpiece!

Thanks for sharing these treasures, best regards
Tobi


Tobi

Do you know the locality/mine? It is not in the FMF locality database (hence the orange traffic light) and I cannot find it anywhere else so I can check it before adding it to the FMF database.
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Tobi
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PostPosted: Oct 20, 2022 08:10    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

James Catmur wrote:
Tobi
Do you know the locality/mine? It is not in the FMF locality database (hence the orange traffic light) and I cannot find it anywhere else so I can check it before adding it to the FMF database.
I'm sorry James, I don't. Whenever I see a väyrynenite from Pakistan there's always just a vague locality information like Shengus or Haramosh Mountains. Never heard a real name of a mine before.
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PostPosted: Oct 20, 2022 08:20    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

James Catmur wrote:
Tobi

Do you know the locality/mine? It is not in the FMF locality database (hence the orange traffic light) and I cannot find it anywhere else so I can check it before adding it to the FMF database.

Tobi wrote:
MIM Museum wrote:
Väyrynenite
Lolu Dahku Mine, Roundu Valley, Skardu District, Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan
3 x 2 x 14.5 cm / main crystal: 14.2 cm
Elegant sheaf of slender transparent crystals with a beautiful red-pink color, and perfectly terminated main crystals. Crystals of such size and transparency are unusual for this species.
What an amazing piece, I first thought this was a rubellite! I guess this is the first time in my 30 years of collecting minerals that I find a väyrynenite aesthetic. And not only aesthetic, this is a real stunner of incredible size and perfect aesthetics. Maybe the best väyrynenite ever found? For sure something most of us haven't seen before and won't see again - a striking and unique masterpiece!

Thanks for sharing these treasures, best regards
Tobi


I suppose Salim Eddé would know where the mine information comes from and how reliable it is.
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PostPosted: Oct 20, 2022 10:32    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

No way to find any reference of Lolu Dahku Mine. I suspect it could be one of the many mines near Shengus which are well known for vayrynenite finds.
In any case if it is in Roundu Valley, from 2019 it belongs to Roundu District, not to Skardu District anymore.
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Tobi
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 01:33    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

Fiebre Verde wrote:
I suppose Salim Eddé would know where the mine information comes from and how reliable it is.
I agree. Maybe someone from the MIM staff reads this and can tell us about it. But I'm also sure that Salim only uses such a name when he has a reliable source.
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Pete Modreski
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 08:25    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

I am just impressed that there are that many of you who know what Väyrynenite is at all--I had to look it up! Or who can say something like "Whenever I see a Väyrynenite from Pakistan..." ... indeed, I can go through a lifetime or two without ever (knowingly) having seen a Väyrynenite!
Cheers and grins,
Pete
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Fiebre Verde




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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 08:48    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

Pete Modreski wrote:
I am just impressed that there are that many of you who know what Väyrynenite is at all--I had to look it up! Or who can say something like "Whenever I see a Väyrynenite from Pakistan..." ... inded, I can go through a lifetime or two without ever (knowingly) having seen a Väyrynenite!
Cheers and grins,
Pete

Pete,
I have to confess I didn't even know the name of väyrynenite (not a spell checker friendly word) until I visited the MIM museum.
It was hard not to notice this specimen and, like Tobi, I first thought it was a rather small rubellite (small by Salim Eddé's standards...).
Gérard
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 10:59    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

About 12 years ago I purchased a microcline specimen from Dudley Blauwet, which has a small red-orange crystal in a crevice. Dudley told me that it is vayrynenite, and gave the location as "Khargulook, near Sabsar, Gilgit-Skardu Road, Northern Areas, Pakistan." I have never been able to locate "Khargulook" on a map, but Sabsar is near Shengus, which is a well-known area for various pegmatite minerals. I am under the impression that most of the specimens from this area come from simple prospects that might be worked for a few seasons, rather than anything formal enough to be given an actual mine name.

Below is an attempt to get a photo. The cavity with the vayrynenite is about 5 mm across. The black bit I think is columbite. Unfortunately, I do not have a lens capable of getting any greater magnification.



F311-7397r.JPG
 Mineral: Väyrynenite, Microcline, Albite and Columbite
 Locality:
Sabsar, Indus Valley, Baltistan District, Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Areas), Pakistan
 Dimensions: 5x3x3 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  1206 Time(s)

F311-7397r.JPG


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James Catmur
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 12:50    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

This photo suggests that there may be many 'diggings', which may or may not have names

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shengus_Village.jpg
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 13:48    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

Fixed.
Seems that among several localities where the Väyrynenites are attributed, the winner is this other locality: Shakpo Mine, Shigar Valley, Shigar District, Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Areas), Pakistan, and, with the authorization, of Salim already changed at https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=79610#79610 to the other locality which, currently, seems to be more reliable.
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2022 16:31    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

Pete Modreski wrote:
I am just impressed that there are that many of you who know what Väyrynenite is at all--I had to look it up! Or who can say something like "Whenever I see a Väyrynenite from Pakistan..." ... indeed, I can go through a lifetime or two without ever (knowingly) having seen a Väyrynenite! Cheers and grins, Pete
There are some specimens on the market from time to time, mostly rather pale minor single crystals. I have seen maybe ~20 of them, but none in person, only on the internet. A quite nice mineral but I never really liked one really much ... except this specimen from Salim's museum :-)

But I know this mineral for maybe only four years or so and I must confess - I can't spell Väyrynenite correctly just from my memory ;-)

Cheers
Tobi
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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2022 14:09    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

In response to this thread on vayrynenite, Dudley sent me the following:


Throughout my years in Pakistan, I have seen dozens of finds of väyrynenite. Many come from the Rondu (I prefer this spelling) District. Once you reach Shengus, which is about 50 km from where the KKH-Skardu road starts crossing the Gilgit River, the Indus really narrows into a steep gorge with the right hand (SW) side being near vertical granite cliffs up to 1500 meters high. They are crisscrossed with pegmatites up to a km long and up to 15 meters high. Over the last 50 years, there have been hundreds of mines in dozens of sections of the multiple pegmatites.

A few km up from Shengus, there is a steep Nala on the right-hand side which leads up to Baulachi. The one main mine there which produces enormous morganites has been operated by one family for over 45 years. Once you pass that Nala, the pegmatites become more phosphate rich and you will find a lot of hydroxyl-herederites, apatite, triplite, etc. Over the next 5 km or so you will cross by Khargulook, Saichis, and Sabsar. Saichis means "white mountain" in Shina, which is referencing the thick white pegmatites that criss-cross the mountains. Väyrynenite can be found in numerous mines or adits in this area. This is the lower part of Rondu where Shina is more predominant.
Once you reach Stak, 10 to 15 km up the road, Balti becomes more predominant. "Lolu" in Balti means red. Most dealers and miners in Gilgit - Baltistan do not know the name väyrynenite, so the call it the "red thing", hence that is what the first part of the mine name means. I spent months of my life over the decades in the Braldu Valley and have found triplite and väyrynenite in at least a dozen localities, starting right at the base at Haiderabad where the Braldu forms one of two main branches of the Shigar through the flat area from Baha and Teston up to Dassu where the river turns more southeasterly and the canyon narrow and steepens.

I have purchased väyrynenites in Nyet which had just been mined in Gun (pronounced goon) which is a tiny village on the opposite side of the Braldu with pegmatites that have been worked right down to the river's edge. Also, across from Nyet (Nit), (locals tend to pronounce it as a single vowel, I have seen some discourse on Mindat about Niyil, but that is completely wrong, and derives from old maps.) (The vowels in Balti are completely different than Urdu pronunciations but the consonants are more in line.)
Across the Braldu from Nyet is Nyet Bruk, and Bruk means "grazing area" for sheep, goats, yaks, etc. There is the location for the famous Hiro Bruk mine which produces aqua with superior water like luster and a dominant chimney called Dapos, with mining in lots of pegmatites crisscrossing the steep but open mountainside. The King of Kashmir was not found there. It was found at Biensapi, another 6 to 8 km up the road. (I know this area well and distance as I often run up to there from Dassu where I normally stay).
In October 2019, I took the head geologist of the Swiss Gubelin lab (Klaus) on a tour of the area and we visited a half dozen mining localities. At Biensapi, the road which has been on the left bank of the Braldu crosses a bridge, and a giant 200 meter high slate gray steep slab, crisscrossed with dozens of pegmatites is directly in front of you, starting maybe 50 meters from the bridge. We arrived on a Friday which is the Islamic prayer day and is usually a non-work day. We found a miner picking through some of the mine run at the base of the cliff on the left hand side. This is called the Wali mine, named after the man who has been working this section with his team for over 20 years. The worker pointed to an area about 60 meters directly above us and pointed to an adit where the King of Kashmir was found and sure enough it matched up perfectly with the famous photo of the miner sitting at its entrance. By sheer coincidence, this was directly above a ground level pegmatite where a famous specimen bought by Gene Meiran about 15 years ago was found. That one had about 13 or 14 crystals on a bed of beautiful large, curved albite crystals.

About another 6 km up a very rough road, one reaches Apo Ali Gun (Old man Ali's village.) A road sign at the edge of Dassu indicates that Apo Ali Gun is 14 km distant. Above Apo Ali Gun is Folji, situated on a small plateau after a very steep 3 to 400 meter climb. Besides for tourmaline and aqua, it is one of several localities where scheelite has been found with this mine producing gem quality cuttable scheelite.
You cross the Braldu River to the north side on a bridge and it about 5 km to Chhaqpu, which in Balti means "broken" referring to the houses damaged in a major earthquake many years before. There is now a rough jeep road there, 20 years ago it was simple foot trail. Right before Chhaqpu, there is the Ho Nala, draining glaciers to the north. On a ridge line to the west, all at about 2700 meters in elevation are three villages, Konar, Biyano, and Seydar, all of which have miners working the pegmatites on the left side when facing the Ho Nala. Once you cross the Ho with a hydro-electrical generator at the base, you reach the village of Chhaqpu.

Klaus and I climbed above Chhaqpu across some pegmatites and then turned up the Ho Nala and climbed about two km up the valley on very steep terrain where a miner took us to one of the mines which produced väyrynenites. I believe that they are found at a number of differnet pegmatites, and I have confirmed that the Maushan mine which is upriver (Braldu) and higher than Chhaqpu, and almost directly below Tosho which is 300 meters higher than Chhaqpu. (I have been in Tosho three times, and have been told that I am the only foreigner to have stepped foot there, with the first visit sometime in the 1990's. My local mining guide to the Maushan Mines was from there and I met him at his house in Tosho several years later).

Somewhere around 2000 - 2002, I did go visit the Maushan mine which had about 14 adits at that time, some producing light pink tourmalines up to 15 cm, massive rose quartz, schorl and fine orange pink colored väyrynenites. Nowadays, those tourmalines are taken to Peshawar, where they are sent to Lahore for irradiation treatment to turn into a deep pink or red cranberry color and sold off in Peshawar as " from a new mine in Afghanistan".

One interesting observation is that as one moves up the Braldu the many triplite and väyrynenite localities tend to produce brighter orange and pink colors as down in Haiderabad the colors are generally much browner and so it seems to be that there is more manganese available as you move up the Braldu.

I have noticed vast amounts of misidentification and misinformation on Pakistani localities on Mindat, but I do not have months of free time in my life to sit and work on it. I have detailed notebooks of decades of travel in Gilgit Baltistan, and if I ever retire before 80, I may have time to produce a final, very detailed account of mineral information for most of Gilgit-Baltistan. Feel free to post this on Mineral Forum if you like. Best. Dudley
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Don Lum




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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2022 14:46    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

I had posted a specimen of Vayryenite on my collection page. Vayrynenite
Shengus (Shingus), Baltistan District, Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Areas), Pakistan

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PostPosted: Nov 21, 2022 04:14    Post subject: Re: Locality for a Väyrynenite?  

... just in case someone who never had a väyrynenite (or who even never heard the name before) wants to add one to his collection, our Grandmaster Jordi has some smaller single crystals up to ~2 cm from the locality above (Shakpo Mine, Shigar Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan) in his latest update:

https://www.fabreminerals.com/webupdate/AP3/Expominer-Virtual_2022-p3_EN.php
(just scroll down this link until you reach "ASIA")

I know this forum is not commercial, but it is Jordi's forum and I think a link to his shop is appropriate here ;-)
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