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A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help
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Patti3435




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 09:02    Post subject: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Hello. You all helped me earlier this month with an agate stone I got in a box lot at auction. I am hoping that maybe some of these items can be identified for me? Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge.


geod 082.JPG
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geod 066.JPG
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geod 063.JPG
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geod 064.JPG
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geod 058.JPG
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geod 050.JPG
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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 09:13    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

The first photo is either a calcite or a colemanite but most likely calcite. The second has an agate on the left and a thunderegg slice on the right. The third photo is elbaite. The 4th photo also looks like calcite. In the group shot, the only other one I am going to try to identify is the rhodonite in the left front. This is the pink and black specimen.
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Patti3435




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 09:18    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Wow, that was quick. Thanks so much!
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 09:18    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

I think that the function of this Forum isn't promote people buy cheap stuff in auctions without labels, nor identification, nothing... with the safety that experts here will identify later the merchandise.

FMF's members, what is your oppinion? we should help everybody, as Les gently did, or better tell people that is the seller of the merchandise who should do this function?

Jordi
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Antonio Alcaide
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 09:33    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

I strongly agree with Jordi. One thing is to ask for help here in orden to identify old stuff, a gift o whatever you find and other very different thing is to use the kindness of the experts and collectors of this site to do the bad dealers' job.

I admit buying minerals in internet from all over the world, but, if I may give some advice to Patt... and whoever in his position, the cheaper purchase is hardly ever the better one. Find the best dealers in the net, trust only in them and your collection and your pocket will benefit.

Best regards

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Debbie Woolf




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 10:10    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Jordi Fabre wrote:
I think that the function of this Forum isn't promote people buy cheap stuff in auctions without labels, nor identification, nothing...with the safety that experts here will identify later the merchandise.

FMF's members, what is your oppinion? we should help everybody gently as Les did, or better tell people that is the seller of the merchandise who should do this function?

Jordi


Tough call Jordi, we all like to be helpful especially to novices, the forum is not flooded with these types of enquiries at moment but if not vigilant I can see it escalating.

I do admire this site for its pleasant interaction with people.

Debbie
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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 10:20    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Patti3435 wrote:
Wow, that was quick. Thanks so much!

Never buy from a not reliable vendor who even does not provide localities. Or when there is some suspicion that the provenance might be forged. I think Jordi is right. FMF's members shouldn't do the work others fail to do.
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Patti3435




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 10:30    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Hello. Thank you for your opinions. I would like to address what you have all said. To be completely honest, I buy at auctions and then sell online at auction sites such as eBay. Rocks and minerals are not something I usually purchase, but when I see a box full of beautiful, glittering items and then win the whole box for $10.00, I am very happy. Firstly, I just love looking at specimens because they are nature at its best, and secondly, I know I can make a profit, or rather a living, as this is what I do fulltime. When someone on this board takes the time to identify something, it increases my profit AND makes the collector who is seeking this kind of specimen happy. I see it as a win/win situation with me making some money while also gaining knowledge from your years of experience. Some might disagree with me, but I thank you for honesty and again, thank those who enjoy sharing their knowledge. And by the way, since finding this board earlier this month, I now have this site bookmarked on my computer. I love to visit on a daily basis just to see things and learn about this fascinating subject that I never would have been exposed to if hadn't bought that $10.00 "Box of rocks" as they called it in the auction catalog!
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 11:35    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

As you know, probably better than I, many minerals look alike, even when you hold them in your hand. So, I would just want to point out that identifying minerals from an amateur photograph without locality, physical information (hardness, luster, etc.), and/or a 3-dimensional view of all sides of any crystals that may be present will often be guesswork . While we may see something where the identity can be proclaimed with some confidence, I think those will be the exceptions and not the rule.

Bob
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Luiz Menezes




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 12:19    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Hello Patti:

The piece of the photo geod 066 is elbaite (like pointed-out by Les Presmyk) but I would like to add that it looks that the blue phase is cuprian-elbaite ("Paraíba tourmaline") and the pink part is regular elbaite ("rubelite"), and it came from Alto dos Quintos mine, Parelhas, Rio Grande do Norte state, Brazil.

Luiz Menezes
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 13:22    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Jordi Fabre wrote:
I think that the function of this Forum isn't promote people buy cheap stuff in auctions without labels, nor identification, nothing... with the safety that experts here will identify later the merchandise.

FMF's members, what is your oppinion? we should help everybody, as Les gently did, or better tell people that is the seller of the merchandise who should do this function?

Jordi


This material sure beats the driveway gravels being posted a few weeks ago.
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gemlover




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 13:57    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Specifically to the question of identification. I don't mind someone asking if we can identify this specimen and supplying a picture. However, I don't think this should be related to a commercial activity. Also, there must be an understood caveat that identification without actually testing of the sample is just a good guess. Yes the picture may look just like something that has been seen in the past, and the name given may be correct, but without actually testing the sample for physical, chemical and optical properties, actually identification should be considered to be a good guess.

John

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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 14:52    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Luiz, thank you for the further information on my piece. I do enjoy learning about these specimens and enjoy doing further research once I know what someone believes it to be.

Bob & John, I do understand what you are saying and let me at least tell that I will be prefacing my auction ads with this wording:

"I was recently at the estate auction of a couple from a Manhattan brownstone who traveled the world. I bought a couple of interesting lots, including a lot of crystal and rock specimens (see last photo). I turned to a rock and mineral forum for identification from experts through photographs. While they have generously shared their knowledge with me they have also advised that identification through photos only, and without actual testing of the specimen is an educated guess only. I will also state that I have a "No questions asked" return policy and if for any reason you are unhappy with your purchase, I will gladly refund your entire purchase price including shipping both ways."

I hope that eases any doubts someone might have about answering my questions for fear that I am an unscrupulous seller. My name on ebay is "GreenGoldFish" and if you have a second to look, you will see I have a stellar reputation for honesty.

Thanks again everyone for all your help and thoughts on this subject.
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 20:29    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

I find myself more than a bit uncomfortable with this situation. Patti has clearly indicated that she is buying this stuff with the intention of selling it, so we are just helping her to make it more marketable. I don't think we should be doing this. If she bought this lot because she wanted to keep it, then that would be different. I totally agree with gemlover, we should not be supporting a commercial activity. I strongly disagree with my good friend Luiz , the bicolor of the tourmaline does not suggest cuprian tourmaline, or Paraiba.
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Patti3435




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 21:06    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

I'm sorry John but I fail to see where you (or anyone on this board) helping me causes any harm to anyone. My specialty is glass. I frequent a glass message board on the Internet where I identify glass objects when I can for whomever asks. It makes no difference to me whether it is their grandmother's depression glass that they inherited and intend to keep, or a Tiffany lamp that they want to make sure is Tiffany before selling it to a dealer. I do not understand your argument for not wanting to help me because I may profit from the information your members may share with me. I would see the point if I were selling illegal objects, or purposely trying to deceive people, but not wanting to help me identify objects that I do not specialize in or have knowledge of is illogical. No reputations are on the line, I do not quote anyone so I can see no reason for not wanting to help. If it makes you feel I am more worthy in any way, I am the single mother of 3 with 2 in college whose husband passed away of cancer in 2003. This is how I support my family and I go through painstaking lengths to make sure that the items I sell have an accurate and truthful description with them. Please tell me your side of the argument because I am dumbfounded.
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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 21:23    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

I find it shocking and disturbing that someone seeking knowledge or guidance is being treated in a dismissive way. Many people have argued how upset they with internet auctions that peddle misleading items (like misidentified minerals or making questionable claims as to their "powers").

Here's an example of someone who is upfront, honest and interested in knowledge, and instead of reinforcing this type of responsible behavior, others are demotivating her.

It makes no sense to argue that FMF members shouldn't support a commercial activity, as the FMF itself supports the commercial activity of a mineral dealer. Nothing wrong with that, but let's be consistent here.

Thanks,

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Tracy




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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 21:38    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Patti3435 wrote:
I hope that eases any doubts someone might have about answering my questions for fear that I am an unscrupulous seller. My name on ebay is "GreenGoldFish" and if you have a second to look, you will see I have a stellar reputation for honesty.


Hi Patti:

Your most recent post was submitted while I was composing this reply, but I will go ahead and post with minor tweaks only, even if some of my remarks have already been addressed by you.

I want to emphasize that nobody on the Forum is suggesting that you are an "unscrupulous" seller. But, you are a seller, not a collector. And as you indicated in an earlier post, you are seeking information on the specimens you acquired in order to increase your profit from the sale. I have to agree with John and others that this is not in keeping with the character of the Forum. The Forum is intended to support and assist mineral collectors of all levels. People here are happy to help collectors identify specimens within their personal collections. But it crosses a boundary when the individual seeking assistance is only doing so for the purpose of setting higher resale values. At that point we are no longer helping collectors, we are also supporting business ventures.

You also indicated in your earlier posting that you wanted to get identification of the specimens "because it makes the collector who is seeking this kind of specimen happy." You will find that any serious collector will not be satisfied with just knowing a mineral's ID. It is equally important to know its provenance. the "value" of a mineral specimen is defined by a good number of parameters - its esthetics, whether it comes with labels, where it was found and the significance of the find, who handled it, and so on. Mineral collectors pay as much or more attention to all these details as to the specimen itself. You are not likely to attract the attention of the more advanced collectors if all you have is an educated guess as to what type of mineral you are offering, and no further information.

With regrets, Patti, I agree with all respondents above that the role of FMF is not to help with commercial aspects of minerals and mineral sales.

And to Jim's remark "the FMF itself supports the commercial activity of a mineral dealer," are you referring to Jordi? Jordi created the Forum to be a meeting place for collectors around the world, not to enhance his sales. He indicated to me in a private correspondence that he wants people to think of it as "The Forum," not "Jordi's Forum." While it is true that FMF exists within Jordi's website, it is not business-motivated. Moreover, members have gone to great length to block any use of the Forum for commercial purposes (e.g., poster offering minerals for sale or seeking financial backing for mining operations). I think we are being pretty in our reactions within this thread.

- Tracy

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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2010 22:36    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Tracy wrote:
And to Jim's remark "the FMF itself supports the commercial activity of a mineral dealer," are you referring to Jordi? Jordi created the Forum to be a meeting place for collectors around the world, not to enhance his sales. He indicated to me in a private correspondence that he wants people to think of it as "The Forum," not "Jordi's Forum." While it is true that FMF exists within Jordi's website, it is not business-motivated. Moreover, members have gone to great length to block any use of the Forum for commercial purposes (e.g., poster offering minerals for sale or seeking financial backing for mining operations). I think we are being pretty in our reactions within this thread.

Hi Tracy,

Social media like chatrooms, blogs, etc. tied to commercial sites are well-known marketing tactics. Many businesses use them, because they work. Nothing wrong with that it, but let's be realistic. Moreover, the FMF does support commerical purposes -- everytime someone refers to a DVD, gem and mineral show, book, periodical or pay-to-dig site, such commentary directly or indirectly and wittingly or unwittingly promotes the respective commercial activity (i.e., makes people money). Nothing wrong with that from my perspective, but again let's be realistic and not sanctimonious.

"Petty reactions in this thread," you say? My sentiments exactly, which is why I was motivated to weigh in when I did in defense of Patti.

Let's be supportive and positive towards those honestly seeking help. I thought that was what the FMF was about.

Thanks,

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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Mar 26, 2010 02:56    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

Jim,

We have different visions of FMF, I disagree with your thoughts. Anyway, I respect it, and as usual, I prefer submit the discussion to our two great moderators John and Peter and, as usual, I will follow their advises.

Jim, you can't imagine how much attempts of commercial messages I block every day, if we let the door open, then we will be quickly flooded by sellers or individuals with business objectives. Where is the red line?, in my opinion the DVD's of BlueCap and some similar can be accepted because they tends to promote the mineralogy ( "Thanks for the great promise of entertainment and education" ), but someone looking advises just to make higher her profit, and proposing as a reward to us the use of FMF as a kind of certification for her businness? ( "I turned to a rock and mineral forum for identification from experts through photographs" ) I don't know Jim... again, let's our moderators decide.

Jordi
PS: don't forget that in FMF we are blessed for the world's best experts in mineralogy, sharing with us their thoughts. Maybe it would be better don't take the risk that they become worried about too commercial aspects here and they quit us....
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José Miguel




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PostPosted: Mar 26, 2010 05:08    Post subject: Re: A Couple of Different Specimens from an Auction, looking for Identification Help  

It is a complicated and very unusual case.
I really like Patti. She remember me the Tennessee Williams play “The glass menagerie”.
I understand that Jim wants to help her. She is very honest, and don´t occult things and speak with her heart, and she wants knowledge. I understand to the people that wants help her.
But it is true that it is dangerous to do exceptions to the rule of FMF, and I understand very much Jordi.
I feel really the impulse of to help Patti, but my reason says me it is not convenient.
But already there is people that have helped her. Pattie have already some information about her stones.
Patti: yo must to understand what kind of web page is this one.
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