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Self collected
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James Catmur
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2007 07:19    Post subject: Personally collected  

Now you have got me thinking. On my labels I always say 'collected', 'exchanged' or 'bought', with the first meaning found by me in the field. Anyone who picks up my labels in the future might find 'collected' confusing so maybe I should change.

We could go for something a bit more interesting (auto-collected?) but often we end up back with 'self' or similar. I like 'personally collected', and wonder if we could even find a nice greek or latin version that we could use!!

James
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2007 18:10    Post subject: Re: Personally collected  

OK, at this point we have two choices, both attractive: "personally collected" that it seems to me to be the English speaker's favorite, and "field collected" that it seems to please also some people like Chris, me and maybe some others. This second choice sounds more musical and descriptive to my European ear.

Considering that freedom is something great, why we don't leave this two suggestions run alone a we wait what happens on the future? In fact the leitmotiv of this topic is to find something to replace self-collected, and to do this, we need that the people use it.

I will use in the future "field collected", just because I like it more than other options. I suppose that people liking "personally collected" will use it too in the future, so I think that the best to do is just wait and see what happens during one year. Unfortunately probably self-collected will stay because it is not easy change people's minds, but maybe one (or both) of our suggestions will have some success.

I promise to talk again about it on August next year, we could do then a balance of the success (or not) of our suggestions.

Jordi
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2007 04:38    Post subject: Personally collected  

The only problem with "field collected" is that it doesn't indicate who the field collector is. The vast majority of minerals in collections and in dealers' inventories are or were field collected. Perhaps TAKs "personally field collected" says it best. We can abbreviate that by using PFC.
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PostPosted: Jul 29, 2007 07:11    Post subject: Re: Personally collected  

Good morning for everybody.
My personal opinion about "personally field collected" or PFC, this topic in spanishs labels change at "personalmente recogido del campo" or PRC. Too much large I think. An probably confused for the spanishs people, stones arent cereals.
Why not "extracted personally" or EP ?, in spanish "extraido personalmente" EP. Same topic for all the labels, english or spanish, one easy EP.
Greetings from Spain.
Pablo

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PostPosted: Jul 29, 2007 11:36    Post subject: a completely different take...from a mother  

Hello Everyone,
I have been reading your posts for quite sometime and have really appreciated the wisdom and knowledge gained. I recognize that I am not coming from your level of expertise and ratherI have a foot lightly planted in two worlds: yours and the "new age" crystal world. I am a collecter but with respect to the geologists and collectors I appreciate the true wisdom of the catagories given to the specimans and do not seek to name every new peice I get after the latest star or galaxy discovery.
So having said that I could not help but wanting to chime in and suggest the phrase "self birthed". Afterall the beautiful gems specimens are being "birthed" from our earth. I do not think anyone will look at you and say the child does not look like the parent. Hope you had a laugh.
Be Blessed and many thanks Jordie and John and all the other wise contirbutors,
Dawn Silver
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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 05:26    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

Hi!

Although I had been suggesting other terms, I'm convinced now the best of all is 'personally field collected', proposed by 'TAK from NJ'.

However, it might not be the ideal yet, but I can't figure out another that is more precise. 'Personally field collected' (or PFC for short) will become ambiguous when the specimen goes to other hands and the term is to be transferred from one record to another. To whom refers 'personally' then? To the current owner or to the former? Should the new owner leave PFC unchanged? I think he/she shouldn't. After all, any specimen has been PFC at the very beginning of its outside life.

Carles M.
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Carles Curto




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PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 07:31    Post subject: "self" collected  

Independly on the form you record the act, the most important is to know who, when and how, a specimen was collected (and if it was collected with other similar or different species). Those ans further notes incorporated to this single sample record will be more or less important depending on the credibility of the first collector/owner. If notes on the label, card, data-base, etc., are clear, the way they are registered is really not important.
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Pete Modreski
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PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 14:08    Post subject: "self" collected  

I've been reading all the discussion of this, thanks to Marie Huizing having referred me to it.

I'm very much inclined to stick with John's observation from his earlier post,

"...in the absence of a better term and since self-collected is so firmly planted in the jargon of the hobby, I believe that we have little choice but to live with it,
[...unless someone comes up with a better phrase.]"

I just don't think any of the other suggestions are going to catch on in common informal usage. "Personally collected" (by purchase from a dealer?), "Field collected" (by whom?) can be ambiguous, and "Personally field collected" and some of the other suggestions become just too cumbersome. I think by default people will continue to accept the common and shortest term, which causes no confusion because everyone uses it in its intended sense, and just "let it go" that it causes strict grammarians to wince a bit.

But if one were using the phrase in a formal article, I think it would be proper to use the best and most correct wording, such as "personally field collected" or "field collected by ______ _______".

Cheers, Pete Modreski
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PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 15:24    Post subject: "self-collected"  

Good afternoon.
I am not english native speaker, so perhaps what i say is dumm, but I always understood the "self-collected" as "collected by myself".
I am chemist, so, again, not completely sure, but I have something flying in the rims of my mind that it is a form of literature license, like a metafora or any of those figures that are used by the ones that really know how to make good writtings....

Anyway, having nothing that merits to be placed in a tray collected by myself, I still place the "encontrado por........" in my labels.....(if I know the finder, like a piece collected by the late Mr. Shannon or by the late Mr. Kosnar)

With best wishes


Lluís
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ike wilson




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PostPosted: Aug 02, 2007 16:24    Post subject: self collected  

I would have thought that reading ..self collected ...would mean what it says , and if thats confusing God Help Us one and all.
All my specimens have labels and a card file. the card gives all known knowledge about the specimen etc.... self collected ...bought from....exchanged with ??? so no confusion to the person who ends up with the specimen at a later date.
I think it is simple and not confusing

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Konstantinos Ch.




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PostPosted: May 12, 2008 22:59    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

Hello!

Does "First-Owned" solve the problem (or I'd better say sorry to my English teacher for sleeping during her class?)


I hate mistakenly used phrases, too, honestly, but guys, I think that, even if we find a way to say it right, people will carry on using it as it is. And you know why? Because they love they way they first read it at the description or label of their favorite specimen they bought once!



I hope we make it, though.

-Kostas.
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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 08:36    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

On my labels as well as my catalogue filing system I put "Collected by Gail Spann during her first mining experience, Bingham, New Mexico in March of 2007."
You got to be one dumb person if you can't understand what that means!

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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 08:55    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

For the past 46 years that I have been a mineral collector, I have always referred to specimens I personally collected in the field, whether dug near the surface, out of an operating or abandoned mine, or from one of our mining projects, as self-collected. I never even considered that it might mean the specimen collected itself or any of the other possible definitions we have heard. When I hear someone say a piece was self-collected, that means to me, anyway, that the specimen was collected by that person.

Never mind the nuiances of whether that person was part of a collecting team who dug a group of specimens and the ensuing argument about who collected which specimen. Or, the collector who walks into a pocket opened by someone else and pulls a specimen out to be able to say it was "self-collected".

If we want to tighten up our nomenclature, why don't we start with using the term "malachite crystals" rather than "primary malachite" for non-pseudomorph malachite crystals. I believe this originated when malachite crystals came from the Onganja mine in Namibia. Since malachite is a secondary mineral not a primary mineral, why are people so comfortable using primary malachite rather than what the specimen actually represents, malachite crystals? Again, another entrenched name that is geologically not correct but carries a semblance of respectability because of its use.
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Konstantinos Ch.




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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 11:03    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

Hello!

Les and Gail,this topic is not about changing a term in order to be more understandable.We all understand what self-collected means (or, to be more accurate, came to mean!) . This topic is actually about using a language correctly. Self-collected according to English Grammar means collected by oneself. Respectively, when we say that the specimen is self-collected it is the same as saying the specimen was collected by itself, which makes no sense! Probably the term "self-collected" came as a short form of "myself collected" . It is just meaningless in English language at its current form!

Similarly, Les is right. It is wrong according to mineralogical terminology to describe a specimen as "Primary Malachite"! Yes, we all understand very well that Primary Malachite is nothing more than normal Malachite. But, since we have formed official or unofficial communities of COLLECTORS and NOT mineralogists, it is easier for us referring to Malachite pseudomorphs as Malachite and to Malachite crystals as Primary Malachite because the latter seem to be rarer and we prefer to use a long term less often.

What I'm trying to say is that, while a scientist is trying to be accurate with her/his terms (independently of being a Philologist, a Mineralogist or any other type) , a collector doesn't care so much about the terms but about the object of his hobby! The SPECIMEN is important to the collector, and every term serves this purpose. A collector doesn't need to know if Malachite is a primary or secondary mineral,but which is rarer- "Malachite" or Primary Malachite"? Doesn't care if self-collected means collected by itself, but cares to know that her/his specimen was handled for the first time by an important person in the hobby, because this increases its value!

You see, there is a kind of fashion in all hobbies, especially in collecting hobbies.

Best regards!
-Kostas.
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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 11:54    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

While I am certain that I am overreacting, I nevertheless bristle at the suggestion that there is a clear division between scientists and mineral collectors. Kostas, your personal collecting style might not lend itself to studying the science to any degree (hmm, isn't this touching on another topic in the Forum?), but there are many others who find minerals fascinating for their scientific attributes. It is possible to be BOTH collector and scientist in pursuing this hobby. (and I for one don't really care very much how many hands a specimen passes through before reaching mine)

The need for accuracy is equally important regardless of what pleases you about minerals. To that end it seems to me that as long as we are meticulous in recording details, it doesn't matter how we record them. I side with Gail and catalog my specimens as "puchased from/at _________ on xx/yy/zzzz" or "found in/at _________ on xx//yy/zzzz" as appropriate.

Last: Webster's New World Dictionary defines "self" as "one's own person as distinct from others." So "self-collected" is NOT inaccurate or meaningless in English - it means "collected by one's own person." :-)

- Tracy

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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 12:14    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

I agree with Tracy. It is our responsibility to maintain with as much accuracy all of the information we have and we know about our specimens. While some collectors will claim to have no scientific curiousity about their specimens, I believe that is more facade than reality. How can you not look at two quartz specimens, one smoky and one amethyst, and not at least wonder for a moment why the crystals are different sizes or how the color came to be?

Getting back to malachite and just for the sake of argument, I would suggest there are three "types" of malachite and the word malachite, by itself, does not denote a pseudomorph. There is malachite (massive or crystalline), malachite after azurite or malachite pseudo (yes, I appreciate malachite replaces copper and cuprite and even wood), and finally malachite crystals. The term "primary malachite" is widely and incorrectly used but it describes something that everyone seems to be familiar with and I guess that is why it is used. However, I do not accept that primary malachite is easier to say than malachite crystals.
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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 12:42    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

Tracy,

I plan to be in Newark in about a month and was wondering how close you are and if you would like a visitor?

Les
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Tracy




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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 12:58    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

Hi Les -

Newark's not around the corner from here, but not unreachable either (about 50 minutes by car). Send me details of your trip offline balagan29(at)yahoo(dot)com, I'd love to meet you here, there, or someplace in the middle.

Tracy

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alfredo
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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 13:08    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

English is the supremely illogical language, so why should mineral collecting be the only field in English with an entirely logical vocabulary? Those looking for logic in language should learn Esperanto, not English.
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Konstantinos Ch.




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PostPosted: May 13, 2008 13:22    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

Hello again.

Tracy,I wasn't talking about a division.I was just saying that a collector is not necessarily a scientist and a scientist is not necessarily a collector.This doesn't mean the same person cannot be interested in both!

Given the facts that a field collector has mined limited specimen in his/her lifetime and that a world-class collector picks only the best of the best,it is important to know this information.For example, a piece once picked by Ralph Clark is somehow guaranteed to be of best quality! One would more easily dare to pay 10,000 dollars for a piece, if it once belonged to a famous collector, because the chance of a mistaken purchase is lower.

I was talking about accuracy in terminology, not description of the specimen. The best the description the best is the valuing of the specimen.

Les,I didn't say that collectors are not interested in science. If not anything else, they need scientific information to be able to value the different specimens,I was only saying that they are interested in science because this serves their collectible needs.

Otherwise,why not study on some other science(s) as well? Why most of us haven't studied and worked as mineralogists?

On Malachite, they usually refer to 1rst and 2nd type just as Malachite and to Malachite crystals as Primary Malachite. "Primary Malachite" is not easier than "Malachite", but "Malachite" is easier than "Malachite pseudo after Azurite" and "Massive Malachite", which are the most common types and so, more often referred to. (And that's what I was trying to say...). I totally agree with you about the mistaken term!

Best regards!
-Kostas,
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