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Ethnic minorities and minerals
  
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stumpy




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 09:33    Post subject: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Looking at the photos in the show reports on this site and others, it is interesting to note how few collectors there are from ethnic minorities. For instance, has anyone here ever met a black mineral collector? It seems strange, especially when nowadays ethnic minorities are represented in all social/economic bands and have equal access to education. Anyone have any thoughts on the reasons for this?

S.
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Gail




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 10:30    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

It is the same thing in pro cycling. Look at the Tour de France. Including the crowds that line the streets.
I know quite a few hispanic and black collectors, just that they don't go to the big shows. Not really sure why?

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Jean Sendero




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 12:19    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Why are we talking about this? Minorities are a local phenomenon. I am part of an ethnic minority in Tucson but a majority in Quebec, so what. In such a forum which is highly cosmopolitan in attendance, I would suggest to avoid topics such as race, religion and politics, unless there is a clear link to the hobby.
Cheers
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Gail




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 12:24    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Well Jean, it seems you ARE talking about it. I don't mind chatting about things as long as there is no flaming, rudeness or what have you. If Jordi doesn't mind, I don't see any harm in speculation.
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 13:25    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I got this email from a senior member of this Forum
wrote:
Just got the notification for Stumpy's post. After a quick check of what
he posted before, he seems to be a bit provocative. Have nothing against
him, nor his question (he's right in fact), but is it really a good idea
to publish such threads on FMF ?

I totally agree with this message. Stumpy seems to be specialized to introduce flaming threads here and I ignore why.

Stumpy, I respect the quality of your texts and the profoundness of the topics you introduce here, and I agree with you that we don't should be a kind of backslapping club, but believe me, is not easy moderate a Forum and all help from members is more than welcome, specially on my case not being native English speaker.

BTW I already modified the tittle of this thread, you wrote "Ethinic minorities and minerals" and I believe that the correct is "Ethnic minorities and minerals"

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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 17:26    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I'll agree with Stumpy that ethnic minorities are under-represented among mineral collectors, but they aren't absent. I've met a black tourmaline collector (well, that's ambiguous, not a collector of schorl, a black man who collects tourmalines of all colors). Of course, one of the Smithsonian mineral curators is black, and very knowledgeable obviously. And I know several chinese-american, japanese-american and latino collectors, both in California and the New York/New Jersey region. The emphasis on jade at the San Francisco club might be a cultural influence from the chinese minority there.

On a somewhat different angle, I'm currently at the Kyoto mineral show, Japan, and I met a couple of caucasian mineral collectors who live here and are active in the local clubs - I guess they count as "ethnic minorities" here ;))

But your point is well taken; definitely under-represented. But the same holds true for women, a minority among mineral collectors, although not an ethnic group. I suppose that in every field of human endeavour, whether mineral collecting, cycling, or whatever, the dominant majority should be alert to subtle and not-so-subtle discrimination and try to make minoriies feel more welcome.
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Eduardoo




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 17:58    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

My take on these kind of topics.

Nothing should be off-topic per se. As long as flames are avoided, there is nothing wrong in examining actual data when available. The trick is not letting passions grow when discussing such things as politics, religion, race issues and such. It all depends on how mature the interlocutors are, and of course moderators have to decide if it's worth taking the risk.

Cheers.
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 18:05    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I agree Eduardo.

Let's the topic develope hoping don't becomes flaming...
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Phil Phillips




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 19:18    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Jordi Fabre wrote:
I got this email from a senior member of this Forum
wrote:
Just got the notification for Stumpy's post. After a quick check of what
he posted before, he seems to be a bit provocative. Have nothing against
him, nor his question (he's right in fact), but is it really a good idea
to publish such threads on FMF ?

I totally agree with this message. Stumpy seems to be specialized to introduce flaming threads here and I ignore why.

Stumpy, I respect the quality of your texts and the profoundness of the topics you introduce here, and I agree with you that we don't should be a kind of backslapping club, but believe me, is not easy moderate a Forum and all help from members is more than welcome, specially on my case not being native English speaker.

BTW I already modified the tittle of this thread, you wrote "Ethinic minorities and minerals" and I believe that the correct is "Ethnic minorities and minerals"


I think we might all feel slightly uncomfortable addressing an issue that touches on the potential for conscious discrimination in our lives. The issue can quickly get radioactive if the issue is poorly defined.

But I'm not even sure what the issue actually is here. Ethnic discrimination to me is not the same issue as racial discrimination to me, although they can overlap. Are we speaking of hobbyist and interested people attending the shows or are we speaking about vendors; or collectors?

My personal history with mineral shows and the collecting hobby in general has been just the opposite - neither race (black/ other colors) or ethnic (insert name here) has been an issue other than added interest and depth to the social context that is part of this addiction. My experience in this area can best be summed up as : those garnets , will you sell them to me for less than that price tag? No? OK then, can you at tell me more about them? Damn, wish I knew (insert language name). I suspect it's the same for the next person who wants the same specimen. I didn't need anyone to grant access or permission to be there. What bias?

I agree that I don't see the usual visual racial distribution in the sea of faces at the shows. Should I expect to as a matter of course? There's a lot more Chinese than I usually see on the streets of my life. I think I know the reasons for that and I can't call it bias.

If we're talking about the lack of black people at the show as customers or dealers, I have to agree. I've encountered a relative few. I'm curious as to why - there's a great many countries (US included) full of such customers who seem noticeable absent, at least at the US shows. My guess is that it's not educational background or financial issues either. Look at the profile of the rest of us.

I don't know why that is the case, it would be interesting to know for a number of business and market reasons. But I don't think discrimination is the cause of what we observe. My opinion.

But - it's got to be something. If the question is presented as just that - rather than invoking bias and discrimination from the git go - we just might learn something useful.

What is the impression from the non - US shows, any different?
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Ibrahim Jameel




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 19:46    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I would argue that it is not so much because of ethnicity, but other cultural/ economic factors.

Particularly in the natural sciences, Western academics have for the last 300 hundred years placed an emphasis on organizing and categorizing. In a place like Pakistan or Madagascar, the word "fish" is used to describe any of a hundred species. In the west, even a specific term like "Catfish" or "sturgeon" is not enough--- there are hundreds of catfish and scores of sturgeon species... This greater attention to detail is necessary for species collecting and is largely absent outside of the West.

In other cultures, the objective behind acquiring a piece may be different. Where a Western mineral collector would find appeal in a small perfectly crystallized, damage free specimen, a Chinese collector might find greater appeal in a large cave formation for its feng shui value... of course I'm not Chinese so I could be way off the mark.

Another reason is economic. In non-Western countries, minerals are still a means to a living, and there is not the disposable income (or time) available to spend on rocks. In the mid 1800's, few Americans collected minerals-- but thousands mined them. In the 1700's, few Germans (usually wealthy individuals) collected minerals but again, many dug them up.

Also, if there is so little disposable income, education is probably also at a premium... and that means that generic terms like "rock" or "fish" wont get replaced by more specific species names.....

In a place like the US though, where there are individuals of varying ethnicities who have assimilated (by which I mean that the aforementioned cultural/economic differences are less pronounced) I have no Idea why so few (assimilated and economically able) non-Whites collect.... But I strongly suspect it has to do with income distribution among ethnicities, and its influence on value judgments. Sometimes that influence on value judgments lasts for a couple generations, even after economic barriers have been broken.

For what it's worth, I was born in the US and am half Salvadorean and half Pakistani... go figure.
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Greg Toomey




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 20:04    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I will respond to this topic and limit it to my observations at the Tucson show. Along the freeway areas and tents, there is a large variety of the public at large - young, old, female, rich, poor, Hispanic, black, etc. as well as a larger variety of vendors from many countries around the world. It has more of a carnival atmosphere, a street fair with minerals and gems as a unifying theme among many other kinds of goods and sights and sounds. It is more relaxed and casual. Many attendess buy minerals at these places, but they never go to the other venues of the Tucson show. Due to the magnitude of the "Tucson Show Experience," these areas are not covered in this forum - which is a "mineral" topic forum.

Many of the venues that are covered in the Tucson show reports (i.e. the Main show at TCC, the Westward Look and the Marty Zinn shows) are mineral only or predominately mineral shows, and they attract a more limited and specialized group of people. Many vendors and collectors are 2nd and 3rd generation, many other attendees have museum, scholarly and/or professional interests, and many of the collectors are quite knowledgable, enthusiastic and/or wealthy. There are others at these shows, but not in large groups. I think it will always be this way, but over time perhaps a more representative cross-section of people will be representing the groups I mentioned above.

On a personal note, I have spent years trying to get interested people and friends (a few of whom are Hispanic and two of whom are black) to go to the specialized shows, and unless I escort them (which is difficult with work schedules, etc.) they almost always go to the street areas, and their answers are always the same: "Didn't have much time" or "I am on a limited budget and I don't want to feel pressured into buying things that would empty the bank" or the most frequently heard comment, " I want to see more than just minerals." Even after I have brought them to these "specialized shows," which they all leave impressed and excited, they almost always tell me they would do it again, but only if they can do it again with me. Very rarely do our schedules allow a repeat. I wish I had the time - the Tucson Show is one of those things I wish I could clone, many times over, myself and my bank bank accounts.

I have no answers on this topic - only observations.

Greg
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Eduardoo




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 20:09    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I wonder if there is something that could be called "collector mind", but it is true that some people have a pronounced inclination to collect things: rocks, matches, scale models, coins, old photographs, etc. Other people symply seem not so interested in collecting things.

Is there a "greed" gene? I am only half joking here, as this may be entirely a cultural thing. But one wonders...
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Greg Toomey




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PostPosted: Oct 09, 2010 21:18    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Ibrahim Jameel wrote:


.... But I strongly suspect it has to do with income distribution among ethnicities, and its influence on value judgments. Sometimes that influence on value judgments lasts for a couple generations, even after economic barriers have been broken.



I think this is a very valid point. A few years ago, I became friends with a well-known dealer of antiques and memorabilia in Tucson. In conversation, I brought up a theory of mine that I believed many items, such as plates, ashtrays, etc. depicting Mexican stereotypes ( i.e. the sleeping Mexican under a cactus) would become collectable among some Hispanics the way black stereotype memorabilia has become collectable among some blacks, as a painful reminder of how they were once depicted. He shook his head and told me that he has seldom sold memorabilia to Hispanics, and it was usually one item that had some importance to the buyer. He stated most Hispanics were putting their extra money into family obligations, land, businesses and education. He then added that maybe in a few years that will change, but collecting "things" is not important among the Hispanics he has known. The dealer, I may add, is part Hispanic.

Greg
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Vinoterapia




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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2010 02:18    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

What I find interesting about Stumpy is that usually he/she just open the subject with a message trying to get the attention of the forum members, then sit back and wait for all the discussion to develop. Something like throwing a ball and watch it bounce around being kicked by somebody else.

I have the impression that this person is simply studying the behavior of the forum's members.

Regards.

José Luis.
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Antonio Alcaide
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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2010 03:55    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Vinoterapia wrote:
What I find interesting about Stumpy is that usually he/she just open the subject with a message trying to get the attention of the forum members, then sit back and wait for all the discussion to develop. Something like throwing a ball and watch it bounce around being kicked by somebody else.

I have the impression that this person is simply studying the behavior of the forum's members.

I strongly agree with you, Jose Luis. I would like to add my personal opinion about Stumpy's threads but I will not do just in case he belongs to an odd "argumentative" minority. It would not be fair from a member of the simple majority of people mainly interested in minerals.


Eduardoo wrote:
I wonder if there is something that could be called "collector mind", but it is true that some people have a pronounced inclination to collect things: rocks, matches, scale models, coins, old photographs, etc. Other people symply seem not so interested in collecting things.

Is there a "greed" gene? I am only half joking here, as this may be entirely a cultural thing. But one wonders...

Sure, Eduardoo. The topic has been widely discussed on the Spanish Forum

https://www.foro-minerales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23996#23996

https://www.foro-minerales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43765#43765

Collectors often collect anything. We must be persons with a taste for order, with a mind suitable for the details and of course we like the accumulation of things. I would add we like beauty but we should not forget the systematic collector. I have read here interesting opinions about how cultural, social, economic and ethnic issues affect that kind of personality. I do not mind reading more, no matter the "misleading" beginning.

All the best

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str4hler




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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2010 04:59    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

I'm Dutch
I'm an appreciated minority everywhere I go :)
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stumpy




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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2010 08:58    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Vinoterapia wrote:
What I find interesting about Stumpy is that usually he/she just open the subject with a message trying to get the attention of the forum members, then sit back and wait for all the discussion to develop. Something like throwing a ball and watch it bounce around being kicked by somebody else.

I have the impression that this person is simply studying the behavior of the forum's members.

Regards.

José Luis.


Some very interesting responses so far. I admit I do like to be provocative, but only in the sense of provoking new thoughts rather than disputes. And I do think this post is very much in line with the subheading of the forum title: "The place to share your mineralogical experiences". I am simply sharing my experience that ethnic minorities are under-represented at mineral shows and in the hobby in general. I don't think therefore that my post has broken any rules. Perhaps the "senior member" of the forum (aren't we all supposed to be equal on here?) would like to put this in their pipe and smoke it.

Going back to the topic of the thread, I think the following comment is probably the best explanation: "...I strongly suspect it has to do with income distribution among ethnicities, and its influence on value judgments. Sometimes that influence on value judgments lasts for a couple generations, even after economic barriers have been broken."

Another thought I had is related to an observation that minorities also seem to have little interest in collecting industrial and agricultural heritage objects, or the history of cars, trucks, trains, etc. Different ethnic groups in a country like the USA probably have different perspectives on its industrial/commercial history and the artefacts associated with it - while some look back on the early days with nostalgia and see it as an age of opportunity, others see it as an age of oppression and have few fond memories of the equipment they were forced to operate. Perhaps they see mineral specimens as symbols of this oppression too, representing an extension of the ore that their ancestors were forced to dig under poor conditions, and it is a chapter in their history they would rather forget?

S.

P.S. Thank you, Jordi, for spotting my mis-spelling of "ethnic" in the thread title. I think the score currently stands at: Jordi 1 - Stumpy 1.
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stumpy




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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2010 09:04    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

alfredo wrote:

On a somewhat different angle, I'm currently at the Kyoto mineral show, Japan, and I met a couple of caucasian mineral collectors who live here and are active in the local clubs - I guess they count as "ethnic minorities" here ;))


Alfredo, I think it would be more interesting to consider whether there are any mineral collectors among the Korean community in Japan, as this would be a better analogy with the black/hispanic community in the USA?

S.
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alfredo
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PostPosted: Oct 11, 2010 18:53    Post subject: Re: Ethnic minorities and minerals  

Interesting question, Stumpy. Chinese minority here, deinitely yes (I'm going topaz hunting with one later today). Koreans, I'm not sure... perhaps you're right.
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