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Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012
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ploum




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PostPosted: Nov 02, 2012 12:29    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

some photo of bavaria


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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 03:58    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Superb report!
Here is one of the 13 good new Congolese RDC azurites (Kinsevere district)! I took 2 of them and called John who jumped on all the others, including the largest crystals with luster! Although a batch of specimens landed in Springfield, some of the Munich pieces seem superior, And if new one are found, we might have a new worldclass locality for azurite!



3acquisitions Munich 2012 015.jpg
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Azurite
Kinsevere district, Katanga, RDC
8.5 cm
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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 04:04    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Last year, warm wind going down the montains, this year fresh snow! Here is a pic near Munich taken on monday, my rest day


Munchen 2012! 189.JPG
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ice
Bavaria
a few km wide
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 09:05    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Snowing in the Marienplatz, Saturday evening.


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Jean Sendero
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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 10:52    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012 - An opinion - 1  

Jordi Fabre wrote:
Barcelona 11/01/2012

So, this time the topic of the Show wasn't this or that novelty but the prices! ;-)
I will develop this topic in my next post, but as other people already commented in other sites, the break between the "best" specimens/dealers and the rest of the collectors is becoming enormous and it seems that the hobby it could announce a kind of fracture between the "modest" or field collectors and the "elite" collecting wonderful (but quite expensive) world class specimens.

Jordi, I am sure looking forward to read and likely comment on your above note. I am surely sharing your opinion about the gap being formed, or should we say, has formed. The gap is there. But is it always between the "elite specimens" and the "modest specimens"? Let's share some experiences and notes.

Cheers

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Susan Robinson




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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 11:33    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Well said, Jordi! I think this discussion is long overdue, and I look forward to other collectors' comments. The "gap" you speak of is becoming very evident, and middle-of-the-road collectors I fear are not attending shows as before.
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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 11:35    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

I not remember to have the USA citizenship


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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 11:37    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Here is the biggest Pezzottaite exposed in Munich


FP118bMini.jpg
 Description:
Pezzotaite
Amoron'i Mania Region, Fianarantsoa Province, Madagascar
3.8 x 3.1 cm

Collection Federico Pezzotta
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Ru Smith




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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 11:45    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Matteo_Chinellato wrote:
Here is the biggest Pezzottaite exposed in Munich

And how large is that crystal?
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Matteo_Chinellato




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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 12:16    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

3.8 x 3.1 cm
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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 13:26    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Grazie. Huge! I went back to look at my little 2 cm specimen and take a quick photo.


Pezzotaite 1.jpg
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Amoron'i Mania Region, Fianarantsoa Province, Madagascar
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PostPosted: Nov 03, 2012 13:50    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Nice, but I prefer crystals on matrix
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2012 05:26    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Hi !

Nice pezzotaite specimens and pictures ! I have completed the description of Matteo´s picture. If something is wrong, please tell me.

Thanks !
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2012 08:13    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

if you want right collection it is Federico Pezzotta
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2012 09:18    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Matteo_Chinellato wrote:
I not remember to have the USA citizenship

Matteo,

Clearly the show organizers made a mistake.... your specimen was part of our "African Thumbnail Treasures" exhibit, and the coordinators of that exhibit (Alex Schauss and I) are both from the USA. Obviously they attributed all contributors to the USA for some reason.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2012 12:06    Post subject: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012 - An opinion - 2  

As mentioned in my previous post this year’s Munich Show was very poor in terms of novelties. For this reason or maybe because the topic is arriving at its "flash point," I had many talks with collectors and dealers about the evolution of prices of minerals, especially the prices of the best and nicest ones. For this reason one of the main highlights of this Show for me was this discussion.

I will try to construct a kind of resume of all of the discussions I had, including my own thoughts. To do it I will trace a kind of history, starting with, no more or less, Paul Desautels!

John White pointed out here that in the far distant past Paul Desautels, former curator of the Smithsonian, argued "that minerals were undervalued and that they should be as desirable and expensive as fine art" and John added: "He must now be smiling wherever he is." For a very long time nothing seemed to happen in the way that Paul Desautels predicted, but about 10-15 years ago, with the coincidence of good times for the global economy, the arrival of the Internet in the mineral business, and changes in mining, especially with fewer manual systems, the prices started a rise. At the beginning this rise seemed "average" or "acceptable," but as prices never stopped increasing and they grew in a "saw teeth" way with abrupt rises, this finally generated a lot of discussion and a major change in the hobby. When it happened, many people (including me) said "this is a bubble," but after hundreds of talks, and the fact that much time passed without changes in the constant rise of prices we are forced to believe, as John Veevaert noted in his recent report about the Munich Show, that the "bubble" is maybe not a bubble and maybe it will stay.

Of course this generates a lot of secondary effects, the worst is the fact that many regular customers with budgets not in the upper thousands of dollars quit the shows, disappointed by the fact that they can't find the kind of minerals they are looking for at this price range, as they had in the past, and maybe they will also quit the hobby now lacking the incentive to continue the purchase of new specimens. We can't overlook this fact but let me be a little optimistic in the face of many pessimistic opinions about this phenomenon, and let me list here some positive outcomes that the new situation generates.

- Minerals today are much more expensive than ever, true, but also their quality is higher than ever and the exigency of the buyers too (although the Alfredo Petrov postulate: "every mineral is damaged if you watch it with a magnifier glass" ;-)

- The high price paid for the specimens justifies an intensive search for localities; miners and joint ventures are created to extract specimens in abandoned mines/deposits.

- The newer collectors didn’t know so much about minerals when they started but they learned quickly (the amount of info on line is immense compared with the past ) and they know more and more every day, so their knowledge is becoming more sophisticated and consequently prices appreciate.

- The money helps. Although it is true that for the moment the money is mostly concentrated on deals between the top dealers and top customers, probably it will spread among all of those involved in this hobby. I mean: money circulating is always good and it generates opportunities.

- The number of top collectors starting collecting and dominating the market is very high and although this creates a kind of inflation (more demand for world class specimens than world class specimens are available make the prices rise) it "democratizes" the hobby because now is no more just a market of a unique rich buyer, as in the past, but a market of several top customers, each one with its different nuances, making the field richer and probably creating more new customers as their friends and families could become interested in the hobby when they see their collections.

These are just guidelines, with them I wish to open a dialog. It will be interesting to hear other opinions and compare them to have a better comprehension of the actual situation within the hobby and the feelings of the different participants in the hobby.

Before finishing my intervention in this edition of the Munich Show, lets me say Thank you! to the FMFers who published their post and images here giving to us his time and effort to approach to us a complete vision of the Show. Also let me give a warm support to all of my colleagues for the hard job Sunday night doing the take down given the snow and cold weather as well as their trip back (many that evening to try to save some of the hotel's cost) to their homes in a very bad night. Also my warmest regards to those who had to return to the USA with great troubles and delays due to the coincidence with Hurricane Sandy.

Thank you also to my Master John S. White for his patient revision of my (as usual) misspelled text ;-)

Related topics:
Tucson 2008, questionable prices?
Auctions and prices
Minerals and inflation
Buying minerals as an investment?
Mineral Shows.com / Denver 2012:
"...This will sound old but pricing is all over the place as usual. If a person is at all serious about saving some dollars excellent minerals of equal quality can be found with a 3 digit price tag versus a 5 digit price tag. But many collectors equate quality with price so as long as that persists there will be a wide disparity between dealers and their prices being asked for minerals."
Mineral Shows.com / Munich 2012:
"...It is hard to say but as far as I can tell to my dismay prices for quality minerals are about to board a rocket and never come back down. Then again, I have maintained that there was a bubble developing for the past 5-7 years and the bubble seems to not be a bubble afterall."



Hydroboracite - Khonstein Quarry_Niedersachswerfen_Nordhausen_Harz_Thuringia_Germany.jpg
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This is one of the extraordinary Hydroboracites from the Khonstein Quarry, Niedersachswerfen, Nordhausen, Harz, Thuringia, Germany.
Its size is 5.5 x 5.5 x 4.2 cm. and its matrix is Anhydrite
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Hydroboracite - Khonstein Quarry_Niedersachswerfen_Nordhausen_Harz_Thuringia_Germany - detail.jpg
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And this is the main crystal. It measures 3 x 0.7 cm.
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Sunday morning and snowing. Please note that the Hydroboracite and the snow have the same color/light! ;-)
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Going to the Fair...
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...everything was snowed...
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..and arriving to the Fair...
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...everything was also covered by the snow, and in the night much worst...
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Munich 2012 - The Alpine Monster.jpg
 Description:
...so lets the "Alpine Monster" with his Quartz in the backpack give us a note of color after all these white posts, and lets him tell us "Auf Wiedersehen" until the next great Mineralientage!

All photos: Jordi Deusedes
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Munich 2012 - The Alpine Monster.jpg


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Jean Sendero
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PostPosted: Nov 04, 2012 19:08    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

Jordi,
Thanks for starting this thread. I share most of the points that you are making when applicable. It is a complex topic and I hope to hear from others. I will try to bring my grain of salt to each of the 5 optimistic view points that you have made. Something you did not mention which is important is to make the distinction between defunct locality vs producing locality vs time. This will affect quantity and quality combined with mineral species rarity.

Although, I did not know Paul Desautels, I am sure that he was not referring to all mineral specimens. Same goes for fine art. All are not equal……

WARNING: When I refer to dealers, I refer to the overall dealer community and not one or more in particular. Not all dealers are falling within the areas of criticism. I am simply trying to make the point that, as a hobby, we need to do a serious review of our practices (sellers and buyers) in order to ensure sustainability.

1- Specimens are more expensive but quality has improved.
True. I will add to this that the quantity of better preserved specimens has increased as well. This applies mainly to recently extracted specimens. But as the quantity increases, the prices should be decreasing as demand decreases. We are seeing this often. A recent example, the Milpillas azurite. When they first came out, the prices were simply incredibly high for banged up specimens. As time passed, quantity increased, in some instance quality improved, and the prices started to go down to a more reasonable price level for most specimens. Specimens that were selling for $2,000-3,000 are now in the $500-1000 range. Some of the $10,000, $20,000, $30,000, etc….have likely retain their value but in the middle, the values have decreased. They will start to appreciate in value again some years following the closure of the mining operation. They will become available, in smaller quantities and only from “collections” as a defunct locality.

2- High prices justify the creation of new mining ventures in old mining districts.
True. I will add, not all specimens are high end. Nature makes it that in each pocket you find one or two smoker pieces and the 100’s of others, are high, medium and low end. The justification to have all specimens priced high is erroneous. Although the venture needs to pay expenses and hopefully make a profit.

3- New collectors have a better knowledge and are more sophisticated which justifies higher prices.
I disagree. Knowledge does not justify higher prices. A calcite remains a calcite, being able to tell if it is a cleaved or natural break should not matter in the pricing. Quantity, quality, rarity should be the more important factors. Recent examples, clear calcite on conichalcite from Mapimi: two common minerals for the locality, common association, etc….why are the prices where they are for these two very common minerals. I have no problem understanding why the 2008-2009 find of turquoise colored calcite included by aurichalcite commanded such high price. Rarity and very small quantity. Or even the mottramite of January 2012, rarity and new.

4- Money helps, hoping to see the high roller effects trickling down to the rest of those involved in the hobby.
Yes and no. It is true that we are starting to see events sponsored by members of the community. And those are greatly appreciated and beneficial. But why should it affect the pricing of specimens?

5- The abundance of Top end collectors are making the field richer and probably creating more new customers.
Very debatable point. This is all about sustainability. Not all collectors will have the disposable income necessary to sustain their habit if prices are going north all the time. There is just so much money going around.
World class specimens should command world class prices. High end should command high end prices while middle of the road should command middle of the road prices.

My question here is what is considered today “world class”, or “high end” or better quality middle of the road”? Everyone seems to have their own definition…..

John V. comments touches this point when he wrote: "... but pricing is all over the place as usual. If a person is at all serious about saving some dollars excellent minerals of equal quality can be found with a 3 digit price tag versus a 5 digit price tag. But many collectors equate quality with price so as long as that persists there will be a wide disparity between dealers and their prices being asked for minerals."

I am one of these people. I will try to find the specimens in the 100’s rather than buying a similar one in the thousands. It is possible to find lesser priced specimens of higher quality but one need to change its “shopping” habits. This means a strong diversification of vendors and places to purchase (not only shows or internet). When comparing, depending on the dealers, we are looking at price differences in the order of 100% to almost 1000% in some occasions.

But why, at a show or on the internet, are price discrepancies so large for specimens of the same quality, locality, size, etc….? Some seem to have it spot on while others seem to be out to lunch. Sometimes, the discrepancies can be seen with the same dealer’s room. The decision to purchase is easy then.

Some consistency in pricing quality vs quantity vs rarity needs to be brought back into the hobby in order to ensure some sustainability. A good reality check is required when it comes to quality, quantity, and rarity. Not all fine art is expensive.

Is this starting to damage the hobby?….I strongly believe that it does. The message that it sends to the young and/or new collectors is not good.

Is it a bubble? Probably not, but it needs to be deflated a little with more common sense being applied. It needs to be leveled out. I think that everyone expectations have reached the unrealistic level, from miners at the source asking for full retail prices to the dealers asking high end prices on poor quality specimens. There are just so many real high end world class specimens, same as fine art.

Or, is this hobby now solely targeting the wealthier amongst us?

The collectors have often expressed their opinion of dissatisfaction but what are the dealer’s community opinions these days?

How are the shows? Not the fantastic social point of view but sale vs expenses.
How are your internet sales? Simple listing or auctions?

I believe that it is not easy for dealers these days and selling one or two world class specimens during a show will decide how it went. But, not all specimen are “world class” or of “higher level”. Instead of relying on a few sales why not try to sell more but at lower prices?

Collectors need to stop complaining and make some adjustments on where they will acquire the next specimen or the quantity to be acquired.

Dealers need to adapt as well, unless, the target is only the wealthier.

Cheers
Jean
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Matteo_Chinellato




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PostPosted: Nov 05, 2012 00:58    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

I think many many dealers put to much exaggerated prices for many minerals is possible find on internet from not many know dealers, for very much less
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PostPosted: Nov 05, 2012 05:06    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

About the price of minerals...
Many minerals are overpriced, often minerals that are trendy, and it can be seen when you see the same rocks in some booths staying years after years! The low interest rates slows down the turn over, since it is cheap to keep a large stock. Imagine the cost generated by 8% interest rates aver 5 years...
In the meantime, as stated by John and Jordi and others in their reports, many minerals are underevaluated, knowing than less than 1% of the peoples, even educated, know what a nice mineral is, it is easy to understand why! It is still a very confidential world!
Yes it might be impossible to find top Tsumeb cheaply anymore, exhausted for a long time, trendy, beautiful... Most of the planet deposits has yet to be discovered!
Big shows are full of bargains, including some beautiful rarities! Going after novelties before they are known, going ahead of the trends, looking after future classics that are not classics yet, being patient, are way to build a collection without being a billionaire...
The collectors that have time and are lucky enough to live near nice localities are also building great collection through selfcollecting!
Yes life was more easy for collectors 40 years ago, but that's true for all aspects of life, even outside collecting, in our very competitive and requiring society!
Money is required for any collector who wants to go fast, it is just a help when patience and time are here. Travel helps a lot too.
And about top end dealers, many overprice their minerals, you pay for the name, the "brand" more than the mineral. But some work a lot to select the cream of the cream from old collections, and that work is very valuable! A big purchase from them can bring a lot of pleasure, just for part of the price of a car or a few smartphones that will become trash in a few years!
I am still a young collector, collecting seriously for less than 10 years, and I am very optimistic for the future of collecting! Looking ahead and not back on the glorious finds of the past! Human relations can open the gates to treasures as well as money, when you are with the right peoples...
Buying minerals like art, for pleasure, and not like a consumption product...
Just enjoying the beauty and nature!
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PostPosted: Nov 05, 2012 07:18    Post subject: Re: Munich Show (Mineralientage) 2012  

This is actually a very interesting topic, but since I have been out of mineral shows for quite some time, I would not judge current pricing trends.
However, it is important to note that bubbles are usually not recognized, but denied, by those investing (playing?) in that bubble. Generally we hear arguments to consider that this is a new era, something is making people want and buy what we sell, and these situation will not change in the foreseeable future. Is this happening now?
If we look to the past, we see that bubbles tend to burst when a number of would be, or current, players are priced out of the market, hence using their disposable budget to acquire other kind of goods. At this point sales on the bubble tend to peak and stop growing, which make nervous those who invest (speculate?) on the bubble who try to quickly recover the money invested (plus benefits). Is easy to see that at this stage prices deflate rapidly as more people get afraid of loosing its money.
As a result, whatever was traded before fail to get the interest of the buyers and sales get stagnated. A very bad situation for those accumulating such items, but very good for bargain seekers.

Regards.

José Luis.
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