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What about heliodor from Tajikistan?
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bob kerr




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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2012 10:22    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

John Betts wrote:
I think the biggest smoking gun regarding these heliodors is that the partner in the firm selling them in is a Pakistani and one of the largest exporters of aquamarine from Pakistan.

I assume you are referring to the gem world people? (there's other dealers (pakistani) who have handled them in the past.)

I assume that by "smoking gun" you mean that the above is conclusive evidence?

This is simply not conclusive in any way.

It's appropriate to assume "guilty until proven innocent" for the specimens authenticity and locality - but refering to a dealer (who has numerous times claimed authenticity) as "guilty until proven innocent" is a totally different matter.

bob
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Mike Wood




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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2012 10:40    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Well then, John's photo of the yellow heliodor on one side and blue aquamarine on the back side of the same specimen is very interesting. It reminded me of something I have observed in the field.
About 18 years ago I was hunting for minerals in the Cairngorm Mountains in Scotland, and I found a small pocket containing gemmy yellow-green beryl crystals; some were nearly 'pure' yellow and measured up to say 1cm x 3cm. In fact I had two stones cut, and very nice they were too.
This year I went to the same spot and found the same pocket had been enlarged somewhat by others, but nevertheless with a bit of work managed to find some more beryl crystals. Again these were of similar dimensions to those found previously, and still gemmy, but they were a pale green colour, with very little yellowness.
So my observations are that the first crystals I found (virtually at the surface) were yellow to yellow-green; and the crystals I found later (below the rock surface) were green.
My theory is that green beryl can turn yellow if exposed to fresh air / UV radiation. Smoky quartz turns paler in colour if exposed to sunlight.

John's picture shows rather pale smoky quartz with the heliodor. Maybe the specimen came from surface pegmatites very high up in the mountains of Tadjikistan, where no doubt the UV is pretty strong. If green beryl can turn yellow naturally, I suppose blue beryl could turn yellow in the same way.
Just a theory. Could be UV that's causing the phenonomen.
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2012 14:12    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

I disagree strongly with Jolyon's claim that the crystals seen some 15 or so years ago are from Pakistan or China. I repeat, the great majority of them have the same habit and that habit is very different from Parkistani beryl or any that I have seen from China.

Maybe Russian geologists climbed all over those 24,000 feet high mountains which extend across Tajikistan, somehow I doubt it. Additionly, Dmitri's short not did not "prove" anything. He did not identify the true source and he did not identify the treatment or the treaters, if they have actually been treated.

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Riccardo Modanesi




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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2012 04:38    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Hi to everybody!
As a gemmologist I can say as follows: in our analysis issue document we have to disclose any kind of artificial enhancement the stone we see was submitted to. Then the CIBJO has some rules we have to join with for disclosing the artificial enhancement we see in a stone. For example, almost all emeralds are submitted to oil and/or Opticon treatment, we have to disclose it, thus specifying almost all of the stones this kind are submitted to it. If you visit the site of CIBJO (for sure there is a section in English as well), you can find the guidelines a gemmologist has to follow.
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.


Jolyon Ralph wrote:
Although I respect John White greatly, I have to disagree with his view that material such as this needs to be treated as genuine until it is proven to be fake.

This is a dangerous path to go down - and one that only makes it more attractive for people to fake minerals.

As scientists, we should be naturally suspicious of anything that is out of the ordinary, and the onus of proof needs to be in cases like this for those who believe they are genuine to reassure us that they they are.

In the three biggest mineralogical frauds of recent times (the himmelsfurst silvers, the tadjikistan beryls and the hollowed galenas from bulgaria) - each came with the same suspicious story - lack of any evidence of natural formation (eg photos of material in-situ), and the same trickle of high value specimens into the market, followed by a small flood of similar pieces, followed by the mysterious disappearance of those involved in the original supply. None of that on its own is evidence of fraud, but when taken into the big picture along with other more direct evidence it paints a very suspicious picture.

There is too much money involved in these things for people to be naive about the possibility of fraud.

If you can't prove something is fake, it doesn't mean it should be treated as genuine. Be suspicious.

Jolyon

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Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2012 06:15    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Don't know where the quote from Jolyon Ralph came from, but I never ever said that such material "needs to be treated as genuine until it is proven to be fake." I am open to the possibility that these crystals are not from Tajikistan and that the color is the product of treatment, but where, after 15 or so years, is the proof? One would think that after so long a period of time the facts would have been discovered, especially since there are so many people so certain that these heliodors are not what they are supposed to be. Please do not misquote me.
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bob kerr




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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2012 09:38    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Riccardo Modanesi wrote:
Hi to everybody!
As a gemmologist I can say as follows: in our analysis issue document we have to disclose any kind of artificial enhancement the stone we see was submitted to. Then the CIBJO has some rules we have to join with for disclosing the artificial enhancement we see in a stone. For example, almost all emeralds are submitted to oil and/or Opticon treatment, we have to disclose it, thus specifying almost all of the stones this kind are submitted to it. If you visit the site of CIBJO (for sure there is a section in English as well), you can find the guidelines a gemmologist has to follow.
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo

Riccardo - although i do not get involved in gems/jelwery, there's a significant overlap between the mineral specimen world and the gem world and a number of times, specimen collectors will deal with the gem people. i frankly don't see alot of the rules, regulations and discipline that you discuss. to the contrary, gem dealers seem more than willing to accept that color is enhanced by some manual means and don't care about who did what and when. better color = better sales. LOTS of examples of this - especially tanzanite - how many are really natural color.

it would also seem next to impossible to regulate this - self regulation? i don't see it. what is the CIBJO penalty for not following their guidelines? this all doesn't seem realistic.

thanks for your input.

bob
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lluis




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PostPosted: Nov 06, 2012 16:49    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Dear all

Late, finding old mails....

For the so called heliodors from Tadjikistan.
Well, I have one of such, a piece in matrix. So, I have more to loose than to win, but as I have said before, quoting other persons

-I am sorry, Mr. White, but I agree with Mr. Betts. My eyes saw the ones in market as equal to China or Pakistan. I placed some examples before in group.

-Well, people ask for proof of treatment. I have heard that at least a person said that he saw place where they were treated, I have also heard that a dealer bragged about treating them. I have not seen any place attributable to Tadjikistan as source.
All in all, like the sunstone from Tibet before, later from Mongolia.
An article also placed in group.

-For the aqua and heliodor in piece: well, nice.
Just I remember that heliodores were produced by *radiation* in nature.
So..... Glued or just the beryls just react in different way.
First stock of "heliodors" were mixed with aquas (anyone could check the MR? would be somehow late....." If late possibility, well, why wonder?

I would like to see *the place* Not the name, but the place....
And not a place like the second report for "mongolian" sunstone, at 3000 Meters and with a tree....Came on, no?.... :-)

In the meantime. any place found?

Just curious...

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Nov 06, 2012 21:20    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Well the facts are that these heliodors do have a common and very distinct habit, very different from beryl from other localites. It is all well and good to report that someone "saw the place where they were treated," but where is that place? If this person saw it, why does he not identify it, why does he not tell us where it is so that we can see it for ourselves? Such second hand comments are totally worthless. You can believe what you like, my point is simply that the source and the treaters, if they exist, should now be comon knowledge and this is not the case. The fact that it is not makes all claims, pro or con, empty. I am not arguing that the color is natural or the locality is actually Tajikistan, I do not know. However, those who question both of these claims have been amazingly unable to provide any evidence in support of their positions. Until they do, comments like those from Iluis contribute nothing to the discussion.

Since you mention John Betts I should point out that all Betts said was that one of the partners in the firm selling these heliodors is an exporter of Pakistani aquas. Is he suggesting that because this dealer exports Pakistani beryls, it is impossible for him to handle beryls from another country, one that happens to border on Pakistan? A very weak argument indeed.

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lluis




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PostPosted: Nov 07, 2012 01:57    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Dear Mr. White

Well, maybe my comments are not util, not serve for nothing, in your point of view and in the point of view of others, of course,
But your comments are not exactly a proof of existence of such beryls.
You say " I am not arguing that the color is natural or the locality is actually Tajikistan, I do not know".
Well, I think to read that you say other.

For those beryls: there are two actually different types. One that look like chinese goshenites/pale aquas and the other, more common, Pakistani/afghani aquas.

It is like the Mongolian/tibetan sunstones: you can beleive what you want, but dealer in USA sunstones placed a long article showing how they have been done, and placing evidences that the mine at 3000 meters high with a tree at side is, as tree shows, impossible.

So, you ask for proofs they were treated.

I simply ask for a locality that *exists*. Zelatoya Vada is a bad transliteration from russian , it is not in Tadjikistan not in any place related to it. So, still a nonexistent place....
Well, maybe stubborn, but a thing from an nonexistent locality means that is manipulated, not exactly completely natural, in my mindset. Like the London Blue Topazes. No one will say that those are natural. Are treated all people knows.

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Nov 07, 2012 06:14    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

I can see that I am wasting my time here. The point that there are two distinct types of so-called heliodors was made a very long time ago in this Forum. The fact that the source of the Asian sunstones was very quickly discovered and verified while the source of the "Tajikistan" heliodors and the identify of the treater have not been discovered and verified after some 15 or so years only extends the mystery. I hope I can resist responding again.
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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2016 03:20    Post subject: Re: What about heliodor from Tajikistan?  

Thinking about this crystal ( https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=53166#53166 ) from northern Pakistan I wondered if there are any news concerning these "beryls" from "somewhere in Asia" ...?

At least concerning the locality of this specimen I'm quite sure: The old label said "Beryl, Pakistan". Looking at the muscovite crystals, it seems as if the specimen could be from the area of Nagar where many beryls in association with muscovite appear (aquamarine from vivid blue to nearly colourless). Also, the crystal form looks similar to some aquas from that area. So this is a case of a specimen where no one ever spoke of Tajikistan, the label stated Pakistan, the only question is about the colour and how to name the specimen (according to the old label, I wrote simply "beryl" on my label, which is at least a correct information). I think this could be actually have been an aquamarine that was somehow treated, or has anyone ever seen such a colour on a beryl from Pakistan?



PakiBERYL.JPG
 Mineral: Beryl, Muscovite
 Locality:
Pakistan
 Dimensions: Crystal height 2,5 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  6124 Time(s)

PakiBERYL.JPG


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