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About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality
  
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Sergio




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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2009 18:35    Post subject: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hi,

Is correct the last wulfenite's location? (I mean Montcada i Reixac): https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=441

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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2009 18:49    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Yes, I had been visiting it many times since the 60's, when the mine was still visible, and it was just one hundred meters from the boundary between Sant Fost de Campsentelles and Montcada i Reixac, inside this last municipality. I know, however, that in many places (for instance, Mindat.org) the locality is mistaken as Sant Fost.
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2009 19:03    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

I'm sorry to disagree with Carles, but to be precise the Wulfenite (variety Chillagite) is from Sant Fost de Campsentelles. As Carles point out both counties, Sant Fost de Campsentelles and Montcada i Reixac are attached and for some reason this specimen's label mention Montcada, but in fact in the records of the collection the Chillagites are properly labeled as from Sant Fost de Campsentelles, not from Montcada.

Sr.Folch went to the mine many times and after a long term work (several years) he arrived to obtain the best specimens mined there using the clever trick of bring personally Christmas gifts during several years to the sons of the miner who owned the best specimens...

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lluis




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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2009 02:54    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Good morning.

Adding what I know, I could confirm what Jordi says: the mine belongs to the term of Sant Fost.
Form when I was a child (loooooong time ago), I have always heard of the lead mine (I was never able to find it, because I tend to go to the wrong direction (to Martorelles), but ask any old people living in Sant Fost, and all could tell you that the mine of lead was/is in Sant Faust (other spelling; correct)

Need to be said that in those times, Sant Fost was a very small (and small means very, very small, in inhabitants; municipal term was very large) town, being Montcada far more important, so perhaps from that, the misslabeled label.

With best wishes

Lluís
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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2009 10:45    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

I began field collecting at 'Teresita' mine on August 16th, 1965, and kept going back up to 14 more times, ending on January 5th, 1987, when the dumps were almost non existent. Unfortunately there is nothing left today because everything has been covered by the bull-dozers.

Attached is an old map (year 1963) with three marks placed where the works had been done. In the point with an 'A' there were only minor works, no dumps. The real dumps where back then some samples could still be collected, however, were in the points with a 'B' and a 'C'.

Note the boundary between Sant Fost de Campsentelles and Montcada i Reixac separating the point 'A' from the points 'B' and 'C', the latter both well into the municipality of Montcada. In the sixties a lot of massive baryte samples could be found in 'B', 'C', and in the area between them, sometimes with fluorite. With a litle luck, one was also able to find small samples of wulfenite (and another species that perhaps is crystallized anglesite) on baryte, but only in the 'B' and 'C' areas. I never found any sample in 'A'. The kind of wulfenite available was not good at all. A typical example can be seen at https://www.mindat.org/photo-99624.html

I understand that somebody can disagree, but please don't say just "it was here" or "it was there". You'd better attach some documentation for everybody to see.
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2009 11:43    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

This reminds me of the Isla Perejil dispute. Countries have been on the brink of war over tiny territorial issues like this... Here, however, I would say that what matters, if anything, is the actual location of the vein in which the wulfenite specimen in question was formed and found. This we will likely never know unless someone can produce reliable documentation demonstrating that ALL of the exploited veins (or at least all of the lead mineralization) were located on one municipality and not on the other. The location of the dumps is very interesting information, and we should be grateful to Carles for such accurate record keeping. However, I posit that dumps is not were minerals form. If the mining operations and lead mineralization extended over both municipalities, then the dispute would be futile at this point unless whoever extracted this specimen from the ground could speak from the grave and tell us which side of the border it came from. So, maybe you should consider calling the location of the best Catalan wulfenites Sant Fost/Montcada i Reixac, and peace be to all.
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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2009 12:04    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

You're right Joan.

I have a suggestion: as the vast majority of infos related with these Wulfenite mention Sant Fost, people in Catalonia recognize Sant Fost as the locality, and in the Folch's records and files that I have seen, them are labeled as Sant Fost (excepting the one photographed and maybe some other), maybe the more reasonable would be to keep the traditional name that everybody recognize, so Sant Fost de Campsentelles.

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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2009 15:48    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Good afternoon

Not my intention to begin a war, but for placing info, I surfed the net, and apart from the info from Mindat, Foro Fabre minerals and what I have heard since 1964, I found always chillagite related to Sant Fost. I humbly remember that as Mr. Millan have gently placed, he speaks about the dumps, not the mine itself

Mr. Closas place in 1931 the wulfenite in Sant Fost:
https://books.google.es/books?id=T19yQ8_cQAgC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=wulfenita+barcelona&source=bl&ots=GshEbYrpte&sig=2Uwyf9Gs4hjaoqoIan1C2pzkzsE&hl=es&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

In 1979 Mr. Bareche also places the locality as Sant Fost:
https://publicacions.iec.cat/PopulaFitxaArticle.do?idArticle=17168&moduleName=novetats_editorials&subModuleName=&idTipusConsulta=citacio
(links normalized by FMF)

I am very sorry, but I have been unable to find any single mention of Montcada.

With best wishes

Lluís
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Carles Millan
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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2009 17:56    Post subject: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hi Lluís!

>I humbly remember that as Mr. Millan have gently placed, he speaks about the dumps, not the mine itself

As far as I can remember, both dumps in Montcada i Reixac did have a mine nearby. They could be seen until being covered in the eighties.

It would be quite useful to produce a map with the exact location of the mine in Sant Fost. Did you find any?

>I am very sorry, but I have been unable to find any single mention of Montcada.

Just google "wulfenite montcada" and "wulfenita montcada" and you'll see about 360 combined items. Of course, this does not prove there were wulfenite in Montcada, but the reverse is also true. Try to google "fluorita papiol" and "fluorite papiol" and 915 cites will be shown. But there is no significant fluorite in el Papiol municipality.

The lead mineralized area likely covers both sides of the border and, although the dumps and the mines were in Montcada i Reixac, nobody knows and perhaps will never know the exact location where the wulfenite was formed inside the mountain. And it doesn't really matter! I think the best solution is being more flexible and accept both Sant Fost and Montcada as valid localities. Or, as Joan Massagué suggests, we may "consider calling the location [...] Sant Fost/Montcada i Reixac, and peace be to all."
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lluis




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PostPosted: Jan 07, 2009 05:01    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hi, Carles

Good morning.

Hope that this time I could send the message (despite what Jordi told me many times, I still write in the box of answers....When closing windows I closed it, well,,,,,, :-( )

>It would be quite useful to produce a map with the exact location of the mine in Sant Fost. >Did you find any?

Well, googling Sant Fost and wulfenite, I found the coordinates of the mine, that is explicitly located in Sant Fost (need to be said that I found that the first time, when I lost the message; not yesterday not again now I have been able to find it; I searched because I remembered “Servidor de Minerales”)

https://greco.fmc.cie.uva.es/buscar_yacimiento.asp?p=B&cy=174
(link normalized by FMF)

Not had been placed in Montcada, but in Sant Fost

I will try also to get the info directly from the town hall (not too big, so, I hope I will find someone that will let me search among the papers….. :-)

>Just google "wulfenite montcada" and "wulfenita montcada" and you'll see about 360 >combined items.

I did my search googling wulfenita or chillagita plus Barcelona, to be fair and not trying to support any of the discoveries.

When I do the search “Wulfenita Montcada”, I get 156 quotations, from which only 23 are placed
When I do the search “wulfenita Sant Fost” I get 245 quotations,from which only 32 are placed
When I do the search “chillagita Sant Fost” I get 126 quotations, from which only 27 are placed

If I place the name in English, I get more quotations. But still, more favours Sant Fost. Yes, that means nothing, just there are more saying so.

And also, please take in mind that Google just find articles where the words are found in any part, not necessarily meaning that are related

As an example, he places as 7th entry in search wulfenite + montcada an article that inside has

Presència de la Wulfenita (Mo O4 Pb) a San Fost de Capcentelles
Closas i Miralles, Josep (the article I mentioned, that was attributed to Mr. Bareche when links were normalized)

And: "Esfondraments a Montcada i a Martorell en començar el període pliocènic" Elías, Jacinte.

Yes, there is Montcada and there is wulfenite, but in two different articles, that are toghether in the volume that is referenced under this quotation.

I am sorry, but apart the message you wrote in FMF, I have been not able to find a single quotation that places the mine in Montcada.

>Or, as Joan Massagué suggests, we may "consider calling the location [...] Sant >Fost/Montcada i Reixac, and peace be to all."

Well, of course we could, but taking in account that we are all striving to tell the better and accurate locality, I think it is unnecessary to do so, when we have the coordinates of the mine, that will place in one side or another.

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Jan 08, 2009 06:19    Post subject: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hello Lluís!

I've never blamed people who label those wulfenite specimens as being from Sant Fost. Of course, they're free. I just claim my own right to label them from Montcada. And it seems I don't have that right.

I've been collecting in the dumps located inside the municipality of Montcada for 15 times over a period of 22 years, where I found samples of most of the species that were typical of the 'Teresita' mine, included the most characteristic of all, the wulfenite, called 'chillagite' by some people. And above I showed a map with its exact location for everybody to see. I'm still waiting for somebody to post here another map with the exact location of the mine inside Sant Fost.

The position you cite at "UTM: X: 935927 / Y: 4607720" from Universidad de Valladolid may or may not meet the exact location of the mine. They might also refer to the very Sant Fost town instead. Since I don't know how to check it, I encourage who does to point, if possible, where in the area of Sant Fost the mine is or was according with the data provided by the Universidad de Valladolid.

Unless somebody proves that 'Teresita' mine is not the one I visited for 15 times, I'll keep labeling those wulfenites as collected in Montcada i Reixac.

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PostPosted: Jan 08, 2009 08:25    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

I think you lads have beaten this subject to death. If anyone has one of these wulfenite specimens in their collection, they should print out the entire debate and put it in their catalog. What label information fanatic could ask for anything more?
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2009 05:29    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hi,
In the documents related to Teresita mine from the Catalonia National Archive you could get the details about de oficial situation of this mine.

Period
14-august-1925 - 06-june-1969
Expedient/s núm./s 2521
Description
Expedient de registre de "21 pertenencias de una mina de zinc con el título de "Teresita", sita en el término municipal de San Fausto de Capcentellas, en terrenos situados a la orilla este del Besos". (Barcelona).
Note: With map.

Salut

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2009 06:43    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Good afternoon, Joan

Many thanks
For my side I will try also to get the info directly from the city hall of Sant Fost

I hope that it makes clear where te mine was located, apart that dumps could be in either of both municipal terms, because it was very near the administrative border.

Mr. Folch used to be very carefull in his labels.

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2009 10:32    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hi Joan!

As stated above, I visited the mines and their dumps fifteen times (I have even a small report of every visit) and I could swear they were in the municipality of Montcada i Reixac. As you can also see, I posted too a map with "what I think" is their exact location.

Setting aside what the official papers say,

1. How many times have you been at the mines?

2. Could you post a map with what you think is the real location of them?

Thanks,

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2009 23:52    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

At Apr 13, 2009 13:43,
Lluís wrote:

>Mr. Folch used to be very carefull in his labels.



Wulfenite_Montcada_i_Reixac.jpg
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This is the only Folch's collection Catalan wulfenite that is exposed, with its label (photo by Carles Millan, December 29, 2008)
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PostPosted: Apr 20, 2009 17:31    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

I thought that "chillagite" was the blue wulfenite from Tsumeb. And that the name had been discredited. Well, just let me know. It's not like I have flats of the stuff lying around the house, I'm merely curious.

Thanks,

Ed

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PostPosted: Apr 21, 2009 04:55    Post subject: Re: About the correct Wulfenite (chillagite) locality  

Hi Ed!

'Chillagite' is currently a discouraged name for the tungsten-rich wulfenite. Many people state those Catalan wulfenites from the Montcada/Sant Fost area contain some amount of wolfram or tungsten, but I don't know if reliable analytical results are available.

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