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Pyrite From Gavorrano?
  
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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 19, 2021 19:51    Post subject: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Several years ago I purchased this Pyrite specimen from a dealer, who I believed said it came from the Gavorrano mine in Tuscany, Italy. It did not come with a card stating its origins. I have checked online for similar looking pyrite specimens from Gavorrano on FMF, Mindat, and Google with no results. Is it possible this pyrite specimen is from another locality such as the Huanzala mine in Peru?

The first photo is from several years ago. I recently attempted to take better pictures but the luster made it nearly impossible. The second photo was the best one.



DSCN3661.JPG
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Description:
Gavorrano Mine?
8.9 x 8.9 x 6.35 cm
 Viewed:  1845 Time(s)

DSCN3661.JPG



20210809_124955.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Description:
Gavorrano Mine?
8.9 x 8.9 x 6.35 cm
 Viewed:  1845 Time(s)

20210809_124955.jpg


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Tobi
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PostPosted: Aug 20, 2021 04:42    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Casimir Sarisky wrote:
Several years ago I purchased this Pyrite specimen from a dealer, who I believed said it came from the Gavorrano mine in Tuscany, Italy. It did not come with a card stating its origins. I have checked online for similar looking pyrite specimens from Gavorrano on FMF, Mindat, and Google with no results. Is it possible this pyrite specimen is from another locality such as the Huanzala mine in Peru?
Sure, this could also be from Huanzala, but why not from Gavorrano Mine? Such pyrites occured in several mines in Tuscany such as Gavorrano or Niccioleta ...
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Herman van Dennebroek




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PostPosted: Aug 20, 2021 04:54    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

From 1972 to the end of 1980 I visited Tuscany several times. I collected minerals myself and bought minerals, especially pyrite, from miners and dealers. At that time there were 3 large mines that supplied pyrite and other ore minerals. Gavorrano, Niccioleta and Boccheggiano. Hardly any work was done in the Boccheggiano pyrite outcrop at that time. For all the mines and quarries in Tuscany, entering the mine sites was strictly prohibited and there were usually armed guards present who managed to find you after a short or longer time and escort you outside. Most of the pyrite from the dealers came from Gavorrano. In the course of the seventies, the supply of Peruvian pyrite on fairs increased. In the 1980s there was hardly any more supply of Italian pyrite.
If you placed fresh Gavorrano specimen next to fresh Peruvian specimens, there was a slight difference in color. Most Gavorrano pyrite was slightly more yellow than Peruvian.

It is very difficult to answer your question whether the specimen is Italian or Peruvian.

The photos, just a vew from my collection, were taken just as quickly and are for reference only. Photographing pyrite properly is quite a challenge and I don't have time for that at the moment.



pyriet Gavorrano 6x6x5.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine area, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 6x6x5 cm
 Description:
Not Gavorrano mine area but mine
 Viewed:  1762 Time(s)

pyriet Gavorrano 6x6x5.jpg



pyriet Gavorrano 3,5x2,5x2.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine area, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 3,5x2,5x2 cm
 Description:
Not Gavorrano mine area but mine
 Viewed:  1758 Time(s)

pyriet Gavorrano 3,5x2,5x2.jpg



Pyriet Gavorrano + calciet 6x5x4.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite with calcite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 6x5x4 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  1757 Time(s)

Pyriet Gavorrano + calciet 6x5x4.jpg



pyriet Boccheggiano 7x6x5.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Boccheggiano Mines, Montieri, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 7x6x5 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  1758 Time(s)

pyriet Boccheggiano 7x6x5.jpg



pyriet Niccioleta 7,5x5,5x2.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Niccioleta Mine, Massa Marittima, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 7,5x5,5x2 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  1757 Time(s)

pyriet Niccioleta 7,5x5,5x2.jpg



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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 20, 2021 14:54    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Tobi wrote:
Sure, this could also be from Huanzala, but why not from Gavorrano Mine? Such pyrites occured in several mines in Tuscany such as Gavorrano or Niccioleta ...


To be honest I was not aware that the mines in Tuscany produced pyrites with such large crystals. I was aware that the mines in Huanzala produced specimens with such large crystals. It has been a long time since I dove into mineral collecting. 5-6 years ago I impulsively bought specimens from various localities without doing any research on them. I am still very much a novice collector and still have a lot to learn. Now that I am in my 30s I hope I matured a bit.

Herman van Dennebroek wrote:
From 1972 to the end of 1980 I visited Tuscany several times. I collected minerals myself and bought minerals, especially pyrite, from miners and dealers. At that time there were 3 large mines that supplied pyrite and other ore minerals. Gavorrano, Niccioleta and Boccheggiano. Hardly any work was done in the Boccheggiano pyrite outcrop at that time. For all the mines and quarries in Tuscany, entering the mine sites was strictly prohibited and there were usually armed guards present who managed to find you after a short or longer time and escort you outside. Most of the pyrite from the dealers came from Gavorrano. In the course of the seventies, the supply of Peruvian pyrite on fairs increased. In the 1980s there was hardly any more supply of Italian pyrite.
If you placed fresh Gavorrano specimen next to fresh Peruvian specimens, there was a slight difference in color. Most Gavorrano pyrite was slightly more yellow than Peruvian.

It is very difficult to answer your question whether the specimen is Italian or Peruvian.

The photos, just a vew from my collection, were taken just as quickly and are for reference only. Photographing pyrite properly is quite a challenge and I don't have time for that at the moment.


Thank you Herman for the background of the Tuscany mines. I understand why the owners restricted access to those mines; to prevent any disruptions to their mining operations. I am starting to think my pyrite may have come from the Niccioleta mine as its visual characteristics seem similar to those specimens found in that mine. I compared this pyrite to a Peruvian pyrite from the 70's-80's in my collection. It is slightly more yellow and less brassy than the Peruvian pyrite.
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Sante Celiberti




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PostPosted: Aug 20, 2021 18:15    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Hello, Casimir.

Having handled thousands of pyrite samples from Gavorrano, I never saw a specimen like yours.
Color, luster, sharpness and perfect cubic habit make me doubt that your specimen comes from Gavorrano. If it is Italian pyrite, it comes for sure from Niccioleta.
The most usual habit for the Gavorrano's pyrite was the pentagonal dodecahedron (pyritohedron) often combined with the cube and modified by the octahedron and diploid.
When the cube was dominant it near always showed modifications of the octahedron and diploid on its corners.

As for the crystal size of Tuscan pyrite, Niccioleta provided crystals of over 20 cm on edge and Gavorrano of over 15 cm.
On my galleries of both English and Spanish Forum you can see, for comparison with yours, dozens of pyrite samples from Gavorrano, Niccioleta and the rest of Tuscany.
https://www.topminerals.info/index.php?searchterms=Pyrite+Gavorrano&searchauthor=Sante+Celiberti&level=search

Warm greetings from Gavorrano.
Sante



IMG_20210820_224257.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Description:
Cube modified by octahedron and diploid.
 Viewed:  1615 Time(s)

IMG_20210820_224257.jpg



IMG_20210820_225906.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Description:
A triangular (octahedral) face surrounded by three trapezohedral (diploidal) faces, as modification of the cubic habit.
 Viewed:  1618 Time(s)

IMG_20210820_225906.jpg


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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 21, 2021 09:09    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Sante Celiberti wrote:
Hello, Casimir.

Having handled thousands of pyrite samples from Gavorrano, I never saw a specimen like yours.
Color, luster, sharpness and perfect cubic habit make me doubt that your specimen comes from Gavorrano. If it is Italian pyrite, it comes for sure from Niccioleta.
The most usual habit for the Gavorrano's pyrite was the pentagonal dodecahedron (pyritohedron) often combined with the cube and modified by the octahedron and diploid.
When the cube was dominant it near always showed modifications of the octahedron and diploid on its corners.

As for the crystal size of Tuscan pyrite, Niccioleta provided crystals of over 20 cm on edge and Gavorrano of over 15 cm.
On my galleries of both English and Spanish Forum you can see, for comparison with yours, dozens of pyrite samples from Gavorrano, Niccioleta and the rest of Tuscany.
https://www.topminerals.info/index.php?searchterms=Pyrite+Gavorrano&searchauthor=Sante+Celiberti&level=search

Warm greetings from Gavorrano.
Sante


Now I know this pyrite is definitely not from Gavorrano, which confirms my suspicions of it not being from Gavorrano. Thank you Sante for sharing your experiences with Gavorrano pyrites, and explaining the most common habits of Gavorrano pyrites.

The luster, sharpness, and perfect cubes of my specimen seem to be different from the Niccioleta pyrites from yours and other galleries on this site and Mindat. One other detail I have noticed is the striations of my specimen differ from those from Niccioleta. While the Niccioletas seem to have straight, parallel striations my specimen has some striations that appear to be rectangular. I have added another image that shows these rectangular striations. Could this be a clue to my pyrite's locality?



DSCN3684.JPG
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Dimensions: 8.9 x 8.9 x 6.35 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  1520 Time(s)

DSCN3684.JPG


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Sante Celiberti




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PostPosted: Aug 21, 2021 15:36    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Hello, Casimir.

As far as I know the pyrite striations, more or less accentuated, express a typical tension between the cubic and pentagonal-dodecahedral habit; while the patterns on your specimen are an incomplete deposition of mineral layers (called "Gothic patterns" in collector's jargon). The latter quite often appear on the pyrite from several worldwide localities such Gavorrano itself, Navajun in Spain and many Peruvian mines.
Therefore they, taken alone, cannot be a clue to any locality.
I'm really sorry I can't help you find a country for your beautiful pyrite.

Best wishes for your renewed mineralogical passion.
Sante



IMG_20210821_220833.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 32 x 29 mm
 Description:
Very deep striations with an evident tension between cube and pyritohedron.
 Viewed:  1462 Time(s)

IMG_20210821_220833.jpg



IMG_20210821_214836.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 46 x 42 mm
 Description:
Incomplete mineral deposition (Gothic patterns).
 Viewed:  1463 Time(s)

IMG_20210821_214836.jpg



IMG_20210821_215339.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Ampliación a Victoria Mine, Navajún, Comarca Cervera, La Rioja, Spain
 Dimensions: 30 x 30 mm
 Description:
Incomplete mineral deposition (Gothic patterns).
 Viewed:  1463 Time(s)

IMG_20210821_215339.jpg


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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 21, 2021 17:52    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

I see, those Gothic patterns do look aesthetically pleasing on your pyrite specimens. I do appreciate you helping me out on trying to find the origins of my pyrite. I guess I may never know where it truly came from.

I did find the original listing for my pyrite specimen on a site that archives sold items. I was surprised that I found it. Unfortunately it just states that it comes from Gavorrano.

If I had to make a guess on my pyrite's origins, it would be from Niccioleta. I assumed the dealer wrote the wrong Tuscany mine in the listing, but I cannot say it with great confidence. I really wish it came with an identification label.
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PostPosted: Aug 22, 2021 16:02    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

I agree with Niccioletta. The bottom crystal of Photo 1TM-J8Y on Mindat has a squared off hillock -perhaps due to growth related to a adjacent crystal that isn't there. Photo QXC-LQA has blocky structure like on your crystal. On yours this seems related to the hillocks.

When I went through my pyrite collection, the closest I could find to yours was from Huanzala, Peru. However, the cube edges were not filled out (others from there were pure cubes.) The hillocks were by contrast sharper than on yours. The elongated sides were mostly 021 pyritohedral, and the ends were straight 011 striations.

Square or rectangular hillocks are rarer than cathedral or gothic ended hillocks.



P8210010 (1).JPG
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Huanzala Mine, Huallanca District, Dos de Mayo Province, Huánuco Department, Peru
 Dimensions: 4.1 cm
 Description:
 Viewed:  1350 Time(s)

P8210010 (1).JPG


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Herman van Dennebroek




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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2021 02:36    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Hello Sante,
Just for the record I mention here: the Gavorrano photos I posted (and more pyrite and other minerals) were all purchased from you in the summer of 1975. It brings back good memories.
Greetings,
Herman

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Sante Celiberti




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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2021 14:52    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Hello, Bob.

Yes, Niccioleta is the only possible locality IF Casimir's specimen comes from Italy, although I must admit I never saw rectangular hillocks on the pyrite from there.
Gavorrano sometimes shows, together with gothic ended hillocks, some patterns that look like square hillocks; but it cannot be a possible candidate because the cubic habit is generally combined or modified. Of course, in Gavorrano there are pure cubes, but never so sharp and lustrous like those of Casimir.
In conclusion, I'm more inclined to a Peruvian locality where it is easier to find all the features shown by Casimir's pyrite: luster, sharpness, pure cubic habit, and... rectangular hillocks.

Warm greetings from Tuscany.
Sante



IMG_20210824_192412.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 45,6 x 38 mm
 Description:
A floater crystal with a dominant cubic habit and some hillocks.
 Viewed:  1135 Time(s)

IMG_20210824_192412.jpg



IMG_20210824_191817.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 45,6 x 38 mm
 Description:
A different face.
 Viewed:  1134 Time(s)

IMG_20210824_191817.jpg



IMG_20210824_191346.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 45,6 x 38 mm
 Description:
Detail.
 Viewed:  1135 Time(s)

IMG_20210824_191346.jpg



IMG_20210824_191046.jpg
 Mineral: Pyrite
 Locality:
Gavorrano Mine, Gavorrano, Grosseto Province, Tuscany, Italy
 Dimensions: 45,6 x 38 mm
 Description:
A different face with an evident modification.
 Viewed:  1135 Time(s)

IMG_20210824_191046.jpg


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Sante Celiberti




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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2021 15:08    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Herman van Dennebroek wrote:
Hello Sante,
Just for the record I mention here: the Gavorrano photos I posted (and more pyrite and other minerals) were all purchased from you in the summer of 1975. It brings back good memories.
Greetings,
Herman


Hello, Herman.

I'm really very happy that some of my duplicates continue to shine in your collection.
It was a real pleasure to find you on this Forum after 46 years.
If you come back to Tuscany don't miss to visit me: you will be very welcome.

Warm greetings.
Sante
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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2021 20:10    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Sante Celiberti wrote:
Hello, Bob.

Yes, Niccioleta is the only possible locality IF Casimir's specimen comes from Italy, although I must admit I never saw rectangular hillocks on the pyrite from there.
Gavorrano sometimes shows, together with gothic ended hillocks, some patterns that look like square hillocks; but it cannot be a possible candidate because the cubic habit is generally combined or modified. Of course, in Gavorrano there are pure cubes, but never so sharp and lustrous like those of Casimir.
In conclusion, I'm more inclined to a Peruvian locality where it is easier to find all the features shown by Casimir's pyrite: luster, sharpness, pure cubic habit, and... rectangular hillocks.

Warm greetings from Tuscany.
Sante


I do agree with you that overall it resembles a Peruvian pyrite rather than a Tuscany pyrite. The main reason why I think it could be from Niccioleta is because the dealers said it was of Gavorrano/Tuscany locality. The dealers are still active and selling lots of pyrites; including Gavorrano pyrites which have the modified cubes of octahedron and diploid on the corners. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they correctly identified my pyrite's locality but perhaps they made a mistake. At this point I am resigned to the fact that I may never know the answer.

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge of Gavorrano pyrites.
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2021 21:26    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

If the dealer is still active, why not contact them and ask why they think it is Tuscan?
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Casimir Sarisky




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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2021 08:40    Post subject: Re: Pyrite From Gavorrano?  

Matt_Zukowski wrote:
If the dealer is still active, why not contact them and ask why they think it is Tuscan?


I do not think they would remember since I bought it around 5-6 years ago. They have a large inventory and probably had numerous sales over the past several years.

On a positive note I think I learned a valuable lesson from this. Never impulsively buy something without doing my due diligence from now on.
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