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27 Mar-19:47:08 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Pete Richards)
27 Mar-16:15:44 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Cfrench58)
27 Mar-15:18:59 Re: 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Alfredo)
27 Mar-14:39:29 2 unknowns co-occurring with caledonite, grand reef mine, az (Cfrench58)
27 Mar-05:21:48 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Mim Museum)
27 Mar-05:03:26 Re: trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations. (Ning)
27 Mar-02:39:50 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Tobi)
27 Mar-00:23:28 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
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25 Mar-13:32:10 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
25 Mar-00:25:58 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
23 Mar-13:35:22 Re: collection of firmo espinar (Firmo Espinar)
22 Mar-08:32:28 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
22 Mar-04:20:41 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Mim Museum)
21 Mar-22:49:19 Re: green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
21 Mar-22:47:40 Re: green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
21 Mar-22:45:25 Re: green seam. Looks like it in a state of decay. (Ning)
21 Mar-15:34:23 Re: the mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
21 Mar-14:35:08 Re: jim’s mineral collection (Jim Wilkinson)
21 Mar-14:15:36 The 4th phoenix heritage mineral show (phms) hosted by mineralogical society of arizona (m (Chris Whitney-smith)
21 Mar-04:36:10 Re: the mizunaka collection (Tobi)
21 Mar-04:11:47 Re: jim’s mineral collection (James Catmur)
20 Mar-23:34:15 The mizunaka collection - quartz (Am Mizunaka)
20 Mar-18:13:16 Re: jim’s mineral collection (Jim Wilkinson)
20 Mar-14:06:43 Re: dry gill mine, caldbeck fells, cumbria, uk (Forrestblyth)

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Why we collect?
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Jim




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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2009 09:23    Post subject: Re: Why we collect?  

I think the idea that there is no randomness in nature is quite debatable. More debatable is the idea that everything is balanced.

Per Bak (1996; Bak, Tang, & Wiesenfeld, 1987) formulated the notion of self-organized criticality in physical applications, and the literature increasingly shows important applications of criticality approaches in medicine, biology, meteorology, economics, and psychology (West & Deering, 1995).

Self-organized criticality views nature as perpetually out of balance, although temporarily organized in a stable state where change is possible according to well-defined statistical laws. In other words, the basic notion implied by most theories that equilibria are the norm throughout nature is rejected. Instead, Bak proposes that systems with many components are actually in a disequilibrium such that relatively minor disturbances may lead to avalanches of events. Such events occur in time “at all scales,” i.e., what occurs over the span of one minute replicates itself over the span of months or years.

I thought these ideas would add to the discussion.

Virtually everyone would agree with the idea that people collect because "they like them." But that does not answer the basic question, which is "Why do we like collecting minerals?" Collecting anything probably has roots in evolutionary advantages, but I see psychology largely answering the more specifically why we collect minerals -- especially in today's era. Just my two cents.

Cheers,

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Jim

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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2009 10:35    Post subject: Re: Why we collect?  

Nature's state of equilibrium is that it is dynamic and always changing. In the short term, mankind can strain and might even be able to effect nature. In geologic time, we are only fooling ourselves, or it is the epitome of ego, to think that whatever we can do somehow outweighs what happens naturally. During the history of the earth, there have been several cataclysmic events that have caused 90% to 95% of the existing life to be eliminated. Yet, life, although different, returned each time. We might be able to change the environment to make it unliveable for some of the plants and animals today, but the dinosaurs of 100 million years ago would find it refreshing.

The order and beauty of minerals is what intrigues me. That with all of the forces at play, all minerals can be classified within six crystal groups and the chemistry can be defined. This is true whether an azurite is from any one of the continents except for Antartica. However, within that chemical compound and crystal symmetry, many different forms can occur.
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jorge santos garcia




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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2009 13:41    Post subject: Re: Why we collect?  

This new subject is very interesting to me, unfortunately my English knowledge do not allows me to go thorough a deep technical discussion., would need a lot of time to search for the right words, don't like mispell errors or wrong ideas being passing by.

But let me just say two things. I was talking about the rules that are the basis of nature laws - snail shell may be a little bigger or small but its growth is perfectly defined by mathematical laws and genetic code. The same happens with cristals (without genetic code efect, of course). They growth pattern doesn't depend of the individual.

At nature's large scale and that means all the interrelationships that occurs between biotic and abiotic components, of course mathematical laws doesn't apply. Nature tends to balance, which sometimes is broken by nature himself, but then it searchs for a new balance. However, humans are disrupting nature for some million years. Things we have for granted are result of human activities. Animals that we may think always lived near us may be the result of human activities (here in Portugal, the deers were introduced by the romans, 2.000 years ago, if you ask to the most of the portuguese they say deer always lived here). Landscap is also transformed by man for such a long time (the mediterranean forest - 'la dehesa' in Spain or the 'montado' in Portugal, usually considered a natural forest are the result of hundreds of years of human agricultural and domestic grazing) that people see it as 'natural'. These are two small examples of the way humans can affect nature's balance. We could go on with the human effect on nitrogen cycle, the water cycle, the deforestation, and so on. They may not always be as bad as we think, but means that we are the ones who have a quick effect on natures balance, without giving him time to recover and get a new equilibrium. The results of our action, good or bad, will be felt at long term (or maybe not so long).

Why we collect? We like beauty and want to have it. We like beautiful faces, eyes, bodys, cars, clothes, paintings, we even do surgery to get better look or to pretend we are still a (beautiful) twenty years old boy/girl. We have the capacity of desire and the will for possess things we find beautiful. And minerals are really amazing - their perfection, shapes, colours, associations.

Jorge
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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2009 16:49    Post subject: Re: Why we collect?  

Jorge,

Your english is fine and with your last note, you clarified a number of things for me. I will stand by my comment that in geologic time, we are not a factor. There are now areas of the Sahara Desert that are sustaining growth that 200 years ago was just sand, not as a result of cultivation but because of shifts in the weather patterns. While we may have changed the appearance of areas, that is not necessarily a bad thing. We are the one animal who has the capacity to change its environment. All of this comes at a cost but 10 milliion years from now, it is anybody's guess as to what we will be and what the earth will look like. There were alternating warmings and ice ages long before man was around.
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Jason




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PostPosted: Nov 10, 2009 19:28    Post subject: Re: Why we collect?  

Jorge i think you are looking to deep into my first point..true, math can be applied to most things but at our current level it's only theory..not even our most powerful super computers can use mathmatics to predict the weather a week in advance accurately..with crystals and minerals you can readily see the order and geometry associated with them..you look at a leaf or a tree and you can't see any geometry or order..one snail shell can and will look totally different from the next, where as crystals and minerals can all be grouped in the same class and all have the same structure and one beryl crystal looks the same or close to the next beryl crystal..it's one of the few things[crystals/minerals] that seemingly produces straight lines(generally speaking) in nature
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