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An idea for a collection
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Richard Arseneau




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PostPosted: May 10, 2023 23:07    Post subject: An idea for a collection  

Greetings, I have been learning, one of the reasons I love this hobby. I have come to understand that the introduction of oxygen from biological life influenced the formation of minerals on Earth... That is an amazing concept to me.

I never realized that the minerals forming on Earth were influenced by biology. It makes complete sense. It just never occurred to me.

To the point, I think it would be fun to build a collection based on showing that evolution. This may have been done before, if so great. If not, I'm afraid I only have the idea, not the knowledge necessary to choose the minerals involved.

I'm looking for examples of collections, suggestions, reading material, etc. It is very possible this just isn't practical, just an idea, however, I don't know of a better place to ask.

Thanks for reading,
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PostPosted: May 10, 2023 23:24    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Slight update, I decided to ask Chat Gpt, it never ceases to amaze me. I have included the entire interaction, but would love a sanity check of the results, in addition to my original request. Thanks.

```
I would like to build a collection of fine minerals. I would like to base the collection on the evolution of minerals on earth relative to oxygen and other changes caused by biological life. I would like the collection to show examples of that evolution.
```

ChatGPT
Building a collection of fine minerals that showcases the evolution of minerals on Earth relative to oxygen and other changes caused by biological life is a fascinating and educational endeavor. Here's a suggested plan to help you build such a collection:

Research: Begin by conducting thorough research on the evolution of minerals on Earth, particularly in relation to the Great Oxygenation Event (GOE) and other significant changes in the Earth's atmosphere due to the emergence and growth of biological life. This will help you identify key minerals and their formation periods.

Categorize the collection: Divide your collection into categories based on specific eras or geological time periods. This can help you better organize and display the minerals. Some suggested categories could be:

Prebiotic Earth (before life emerged)
Archean Eon (4 to 2.5 billion years ago)
Proterozoic Eon (2.5 billion to 541 million years ago)
Phanerozoic Eon (541 million years ago to present)
Select key minerals: Identify and select key minerals that represent important stages in the Earth's mineral evolution. Some examples might include:

Banded iron formations (BIFs) – These represent the Great Oxygenation Event and the interaction of iron with oxygen in the Earth's early oceans.
Azurite and Malachite – These copper-based minerals formed in an oxygen-rich environment and are indicators of the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere.
Gypsum and Halite – These evaporite minerals represent the concentration of dissolved salts in bodies of water due to the activities of early life forms.
Source the minerals: Procure the selected minerals from reputable dealers, mineral shows, or online marketplaces. Ensure that the specimens are of high quality, well-formed, and visually appealing.

Display and label: Arrange the minerals in your collection based on the categories and time periods you established earlier. Create informative labels for each mineral, including the name, formation period, and its significance in the context of Earth's mineral evolution and the influence of biological life.

Preserve and protect: Store and display your collection in a suitable environment, away from direct sunlight, and protect it from dust and damage. Use appropriate display cases or containers, and consider investing in humidity control if necessary.

Expand and refine: Continuously seek opportunities to expand and refine your collection as you learn more about the subject matter. Consider engaging with mineralogical clubs, societies, or online forums to gain insights from fellow collectors and enthusiasts.

Share your knowledge: Share your collection and the knowledge you've gained with others, whether through personal interactions, presentations, or online platforms. Educating others about the fascinating relationship between minerals and the evolution of life on Earth can be a rewarding experience.


User
```
I know how to collect, give me a breakdown of minerals to collect based on the previous criteria by era
```

ChatGPT
I apologize if my previous response seemed too broad. Here is a more specific list of minerals to collect based on the criteria you provided, organized by era:

Prebiotic Earth (before life emerged):

Zircon: One of the oldest minerals on Earth, providing valuable information about the conditions of the early planet.
Archean Eon (4 to 2.5 billion years ago):

Banded Iron Formations (BIFs): These iron-rich rocks represent the interaction between iron and oxygen in Earth's early oceans before the Great Oxygenation Event.
Chromite: An oxide mineral that formed in the ultramafic rocks during the Archean Eon.
Proterozoic Eon (2.5 billion to 541 million years ago):

Hematite: An iron oxide mineral that formed after the Great Oxygenation Event due to increased oxygen levels, which caused the iron to oxidize.
Magnetite: Another iron oxide mineral that formed as oxygen levels increased during this period.
Azurite and Malachite: These copper-based minerals formed in an oxygen-rich environment and indicate the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere.
Pyrite: A common iron sulfide mineral that formed in various geological environments, including in the presence of early life.
Phanerozoic Eon (541 million years ago to present):

Gypsum and Halite: Evaporite minerals representing the concentration of dissolved salts in bodies of water due to the activities of early life forms.
Calcite: A calcium carbonate mineral that forms in sedimentary environments, often as a result of biological processes such as the accumulation of shells and skeletons of marine organisms.
Dolomite: A calcium magnesium carbonate mineral that forms in similar environments as calcite but also requires the presence of magnesium-rich water.
Celestine: A strontium sulfate mineral that formed in sedimentary environments during the Phanerozoic Eon.
These minerals provide a snapshot of Earth's mineral evolution in relation to the changes caused by biological life. Collecting these specimens will help you showcase the significant stages of mineral development across different geological time periods.
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James Catmur
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PostPosted: May 10, 2023 23:35    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

This post might interest you and help you select suitable minerals

https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=78923#78923

It might be a challenge:

Life played a direct or indirect role in the formation of almost half of known mineral species while a third of known minerals -- more than 1,900 species -- formed exclusively as a consequence of biological activities.
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Richard Arseneau




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PostPosted: May 10, 2023 23:43    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Thanks, James, I will dig into that. The link is appreciated.
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PostPosted: May 10, 2023 23:45    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

I just checked the post's link to the second article and corrected the link, as it had changed

Richard Arseneau wrote:
Thanks, James, I will dig into that. The link is appreciated.
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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 01:14    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

One of the big knocks on LLMs like chat GPT is that they sometimes very confidently and convincingly make things up. I have heard these called “hallucinations.” Below are some assertions that the LLM made that I think are suspect:

1) “Gypsum and Halite – These evaporite minerals represent the concentration of dissolved salts in bodies of water due to the activities of early life forms.” Evaporates form because of climatic changes, seas and embayments opening and closing due to tectonic movements, or just in closed basins. I don’t see what this has to do with early life forms.

2) “Chromite: An oxide mineral that formed in the ultramafic rocks during the Archean Eon.” While there are indeed many Archean chromite deposits, they have nothing to do with biological processes. And not all chromite deposits are Archean.

LLMs are fascinating, and some people appear to be putting them to productive use, but i'd check its output for errors.
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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 02:05    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

I had an interesting discussion yesterday about the safety assurance of LLMs. We (Safety Critical Systems Club - SCSC) are working on safety assurance of services, and are finding lots of cases of services that have safety implications but have no assurance. What 3 Words makes safety claims but seems to have no assurance (try changing a location from a singular word to the plural!)

Has anyone asked LLMs about the safety of minerals? Would we agree?
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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 07:51    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

At least 2 museums have set up exhibits based on Hazen and Co's work on Mineral Evolution. One is at the new University of Arizona Alfie Norville Mineral and Gem Museum, this exhibit traces mineral evolution through an entire gallery of specimens. The other is at the exceptionally well reformulated/completely redone Mineral Hall at the American Musuem of Natural History, which features a spiral timeline approach to explain mineral evolution in a single display case.

Bob Hazen has given several in-depth talks on Mineral Evolution that can be found on line. Two were given at the Dallas Mineral Collecting Symposium and one at Mineral Talks Live. These are worth listening to if you are planning to build a collection around the concept.

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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 08:08    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Hello Earthlings,
I haven't lost all my Latin yet.
Chemistry is self-sufficient, and it is biochemistry that has happily been grafted onto the chemistry of carbon. It had no other choice.
In addition to the presolar grains found in the matrix that binds the various meteoritic components together, the first solids to have condensed in the solar nebula with decreasing temperature are CAI's (Calcium–aluminum-rich inclusions). These are all refractory compounds.
Chromite is also one of the spinels (which accompanies Al2O3 in CAI's).
There is also SiC, moissanite (as in the Meteor Crater).
The most common and characteristic minerals in CAIs include anorthite (CaAl2Si2O8), melilite (a silica poor feldspathoid), perovskite (CaTiO3), aluminous spinel (MgAl2O4), hibonite, fayalite (Fe2SiO4), calcic pyroxene, ferrian diopside or augite and forsterite-rich olivine
Melilite (Ca2Al2SiO7) can be partially altered to andratite and grossular in the form of black or dark gray grains.
All this before the appearance of the chondrules.



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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 09:01    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

In a sense, the whole question of what LLMs (Large Language Models) can tell us (about mineral evolution) is marginally off-topic, but it is too interesting and too important to discard as such! I particularly appreciate Matt's and James' postings on the veracity of LLM pronouncements.

Like Matt, I immediately questioned the results for halite and gypsum and for chromite, for the same reasons he cited. James' posting raises the excellent question "It sounds good, but what guarantee does it provide that it is also true?" A question that should be asked often and critically in today's world!

The pronouncements of the Chat GPT result from finding connections between vast amounts of assimilated information (perhaps not all correct) that might not be easy for humans to find because we don't master all that information. But the problem seems to be that Chat CPT is not distinguishing between CORRELATION and CAUSALITY. The sun came up today when my watch said 6:15. Did my watch make the sum come up? Did the sun make my watch say 6:15? Correlation, but in this case no direct causality between the two events.

Distinguishing between correlation and causality is a standard dilemma for understanding observations, one which we often do not handle very well. But perhaps better than artificial intelligence, at least at this point in time. If we think critically.

_________________
Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy
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Richard Arseneau




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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 09:16    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Matt_Zukowski wrote:
One of the big knocks on LLMs like chat GPT is that they sometimes very confidently and convincingly make things up. I have heard these called “hallucinations.” Below are some assertions that the LLM made that I think are suspect:

1) “Gypsum and Halite – These evaporite minerals represent the concentration of dissolved salts in bodies of water due to the activities of early life forms.” Evaporates form because of climatic changes, seas and embayments opening and closing due to tectonic movements, or just in closed basins. I don’t see what this has to do with early life forms.

2) “Chromite: An oxide mineral that formed in the ultramafic rocks during the Archean Eon.” While there are indeed many Archean chromite deposits, they have nothing to do with biological processes. And not all chromite deposits are Archean.

LLMs are fascinating, and some people appear to be putting them to productive use, but i'd check its output for errors.


I agree 100%, I use it as a tool on almost a daily basis now for backend software development. I have seen it give some very questionable answers, to say the least. I always have to chuckle at "hallucination". At the end of the day, these models were trained on huge amounts of data from the internet. They have inadvertently trained in the ability to BS lol. Thanks for pointing out some of the questionable points.
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Richard Arseneau




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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 09:18    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Peter Megaw wrote:
At least 2 museums have set up exhibits based on Hazen and Co's work on Mineral Evolution. One is at the new University of Arizona Alfie Norville Mineral and Gem Museum, this exhibit traces mineral evolution through an entire gallery of specimens. The other is at the exceptionally well reformulated/completely redone Mineral Hall at the American Musuem of Natural History, which features a spiral timeline approach to explain mineral evolution in a single display case.

Bob Hazen has given several in-depth talks on Mineral Evolution that can be found on line. Two were given at the Dallas Mineral Collecting Symposium and one at Mineral Talks Live. These are worth listening to if you are planning to build a collection around the concept.


Thanks, Peter! Those are some great leads.
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Richard Arseneau




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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 09:24    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Pete Richards wrote:
In a sense, the whole question of what LLMs (Large Language Models) can tell us (about mineral evolution) is marginally off-topic, but it is too interesting and too important to discard as such! I particularly appreciate Matt's and James' postings on the veracity of LLM pronouncements.

Like Matt, I immediately questioned the results for halite and gypsum and for chromite, for the same reasons he cited. James' posting raises the excellent question "It sounds good, but what guarantee does it provide that it is also true?" A question that should be asked often and critically in today's world!

The pronouncements of the Chat GPT result from finding connections between vast amounts of assimilated information (perhaps not all correct) that might not be easy for humans to find because we don't master all that information. But the problem seems to be that Chat CPT is not distinguishing between CORRELATION and CAUSALITY. The sun came up today when my watch said 6:15. Did my watch make the sum come up? Did the sun make my watch say 6:15? Correlation, but in this case no direct causality between the two events.

Distinguishing between correlation and causality is a standard dilemma for understanding observations, one which we often do not handle very well. But perhaps better than artificial intelligence, at least at this point in time. If we think critically.


I can't agree more, it wasn't my original intention to make this a discussion on LLMs, but I ended up giving it a whirl and was curious to have the results checked by the knowledgeable people here. Thanks.
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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 09:27    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Roger Warin wrote:
Hello Earthlings,
I haven't lost all my Latin yet.
Chemistry is self-sufficient, and it is biochemistry that has happily been grafted onto the chemistry of carbon. It had no other choice.
In addition to the presolar grains found in the matrix that binds the various meteoritic components together, the first solids to have condensed in the solar nebula with decreasing temperature are CAI's (Calcium–aluminum-rich inclusions). These are all refractory compounds.
Chromite is also one of the spinels (which accompanies Al2O3 in CAI's).
There is also SiC, moissanite (as in the Meteor Crater).
The most common and characteristic minerals in CAIs include anorthite (CaAl2Si2O8), melilite (a silica poor feldspathoid), perovskite (CaTiO3), aluminous spinel (MgAl2O4), hibonite, fayalite (Fe2SiO4), calcic pyroxene, ferrian diopside or augite and forsterite-rich olivine
Melilite (Ca2Al2SiO7) can be partially altered to andratite and grossular in the form of black or dark gray grains.
All this before the appearance of the chondrules.


Roger, you have given me something new to consider. The minerals that were around before Earth itself... I have a feeling this collection is going to involve rocks as well as minerals. Thanks for the reply.
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PostPosted: May 11, 2023 12:09    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

This post is also relevant as the IUGS publication (available as a book, PDF or website) runs through the formation of rocks and minerals over the life of the planet

https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=81057#81057
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PostPosted: May 18, 2023 08:16    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

About the relationship between mineralogy and biology I recently published a voluminous book entitled "Biominerals: Microbial Life in Agates and other Minerals". In this work I try to identify structures of biological origin in hundreds of mineral samples that would normally be placed in mineral showcases. The results indicate that biomineral structures are much more common than we might imagine.
You can find the book here:
https://www.agatesandjaspers.com/
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528 pages, +1000 figures, 78 diagrams



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PostPosted: May 18, 2023 09:53    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

I like the Cotham marble
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PostPosted: May 18, 2023 10:17    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

I have everything to learn in this area.
What is the mechanism that initiates this type of biomineral growth?
I only know (but am only an amateur) one mineral of bacterial origin. Gold scales.
I believe that these bacteria play the role of a mineralizing agent that patiently concentrates the highly disseminated gold in the rocks. They would play a parallel role to classical agents, such as selenides and tellurides.
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PostPosted: May 18, 2023 12:21    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Try reading this for Cotham marble

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cotham_Marble

James
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PostPosted: May 19, 2023 11:30    Post subject: Re: An idea for a collection  

Hi Roger,
I am a geologist and I had to document myself to do an interdisciplinary work between geology and biology. This is why I added an initial chapter to the book to explain the basic concepts to the less experienced. Despite there is an extensive literature on extremophile bacteria, there is almost nothing written about the relationship between their biomineralizing activity and mineral structures known to mineralogists. And my book tries to identify these structures.
In practice, bacteria breathe by exploiting the energy of redox reactions that are often already active in the surrounding environment. The outer surface of the bacterium has a mucous gel which becomes negatively charged and which therefore attracts positive metal ions. The oxidation or reduction of these ions allows the bacterium to obtain energy, but indirectly precipitates oxides, sulfides or other minerals. Many pseudofossils such as dendrites and moss agates are actually true fossils, or at least fossil tracks that we can call microbialites, of which stromatolites are a type that forms with the collaboration of cyanobacteria, i.e. under sunlight. Microbalites form in many environments of the deep biosphere and are associated with common minerals such as agate, malachite, rhodochrosite, sphalerite, as well as gold, silver and copper.
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