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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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 Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:02 Post subject: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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When I procured this from a Chinese vendor I was told it was Garnet from Inner Mongolia. While I can see the color being garnet, the associated minerals tell me something different. As I was researching I came upon the Helvine from Inner Mongolia was the closest related specimen. What do you all think? Thank you in advance.
| Mineral: | Helvine |
| Locality: | | Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, China |  |
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| Dimensions: | 71 x 65 x 52mm |
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:04 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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Another image
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:05 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Juan Roberto Rivera wrote: | | Another image |
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:06 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Juan Roberto Rivera wrote: | | Juan Roberto Rivera wrote: | | Another image |
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Tobi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 4217
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:11 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Hi, I would guess this is helvine from Huanggang.
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:12 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Could it be Genthelvite on Dodecahedral Magnetite?
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:16 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Tobi wrote: | | Hi, I would guess this is helvite from Huanggang. |
I actually came across one of Jordi's minerals that were similar.
So genthelvite w/ Quartz I would assume. Thanks
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Pete Richards
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 841
Location: Northeast Ohio
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:18 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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A magnet will tell you if magnetite is present, but I don't see anything that looks like magnetite. As helvine or genthelvite it is much more valuable than garnet!
_________________
Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy |
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 16:22 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Pete Richards wrote: | | A magnet will tell you if magnetite is present, but I don't see anything that looks like magnetite. As helvine or genthelvite it is much more valuable than garnet! |
Got it ok. Thank you. Looks likes Genthelvite.
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Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4986
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 18:28 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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There is no physical or visual difference between Helvine (not 'Helvite but Helvine) and Genthelvite. Only an individual and accurate analysis can determine, for each piece, whether it belongs to one species or the other.
If you need a name, I suggest using 'Genthelvite-Helvine Series'
I don’t see Magnetite there, nor Quartz, but rather Calcite.
Juan, please note this:
8.-) You can include up to 15 photos or images within each message. To see how to add photos and how to include up to 15 photos/images in a single message follow this link
( in: A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips )
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Juan Roberto Rivera
Joined: 15 Nov 2024
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Jan 27, 2025 21:01 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Jordi Fabre wrote: | There is no physical or visual difference between Helvine (not 'Helvite but Helvine) and Genthelvite. Only an individual and accurate analysis can determine, for each piece, whether it belongs to one species or the other.
If you need a name, I suggest using 'Genthelvite-Helvine Series'
I don’t see Magnetite there, nor Quartz, but rather Calcite.
Juan, please note this:
8.-) You can include up to 15 photos or images within each message. To see how to add photos and how to include up to 15 photos/images in a single message follow this link
( in: A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips ) |
Thank you. I will follow the instructions. I was having problems. Thanks for all the information.
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Tobi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 4217
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Jan 28, 2025 06:56 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Tobi wrote: | | Hi, I would guess this is helvite from Huanggang. |
| Jordi Fabre wrote: | | Helvine (not 'Helvite but Helvine) |
I'm sorry, I realized the little mistake but could not edit my post anymore.
It was confusing because in my mother language German, there are several mineral names ending on -in instead of -it. Most of them have an -ite ending in English, e.g. Spessartin = spessartite, Adamin = adamite, Mikrolin = microlite etc.. But some translate differently, like Helvin which keeps its -n in the end.
Funny fact is that even inside of this mineral group the English names are not consistent. It's helviNe but genthelviTe though this is actually just the normal helvine name together with the name Genth, a 19th century German mineralogist after which this was named. So forgive me the short moment of confusion ;-)
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Herwig
Joined: 04 Jan 2016
Posts: 33
Location: Hasselt
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| Posted: Jan 28, 2025 08:32 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Jordi Fabre wrote: | | There is no physical or visual difference between Helvine (not 'Helvite but Helvine) and Genthelvite. Only an individual and accurate analysis can determine, for each piece, whether it belongs to one species or the other. |
Well, allow me to gently disagree. The reactions of both minerals to UV-light are quite different:
helvine: Mn4+2Be3(SiO4)3S : fluomin(.)org/uk/fiche.php?id=391
genthelvite: Zn4Be3(SiO4)3S : fluomin(.)org/uk/fiche.php?id=123
In other words, IF your specimen is luminescent, then that property can be used to tell them apart: helvine will show a red glow; whereas genthelvite with show a green glow.
Other source: Mt St Hilaire helvine can be reliably distinguished from genthelvite via its UV response (deep red vs green - Horvath et al. Min Rec 1990 etc.).
Make sure to use a powerful UV flashlight with 365 nm LED (= true LW UV light).
Cheers, Herwig
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Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4986
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Jan 28, 2025 17:23 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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The Huanggang's Helvine and Genthelvite often form Series, with very subtle differences in elemental composition determining the species name.
That’s why, in this case, it is much more advisable, unless you have a detailed analysis of each specimen, to use the term 'Genthelvite-Helvine' Series.
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Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4986
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Jan 28, 2025 17:26 Post subject: Re: Helvine with Quartz or Garnet? |
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| Tobi wrote: | I'm sorry, I realized the little mistake but could not edit my post anymore.
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Thanks Tobi, already fixed.
Best
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