FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Louis Friend]

Honesty and integrity in all our dealings are points that frequently arise as a teacher. I often find students doing things that could get them into a lot of trouble. They might mean well but a wrongdoing is a wrongdoing and there is no middle ground or areas of grey!

The comments I now make are general and not directed at anyone in particular.

The hobby of mineral collecting does not attract good ink in the press if some members of our fraternity do things, which may be wrong. Collecting material from areas deemed off limits to collecting will give the broader community the impression that as collectors we have no objections to “raping and pillaging” our environment, and this makes legitimate field collecting difficult for the rest of us. It also makes the hobby of mineral collecting look bad.

I have many dealings with the local mining community and I have established many contacts, mainly Mine Managers. One of their main objections to collecting is the act of profiteering, and by this, I mean obtaining material on the “cheap” from naïve miners or “mothballed” mines to sell at a substantial profit to other members of the mineral collecting fraternity. If caught people face severe criminal and civil prosecution, and such headlines only make the mineral collecting hobby look bad. I know in many third world countries such as Peru, Bolivia and elsewhere some miners supplement their income by stealing from their employers. However as most mines are now run by western operators such activities are being dealt with through the criminal courts, and many companies I know would like the courts to deal with all members in the chain, from miner to collector.

If you know of any activity that may be suspicious, I strongly recommend that you contact your local or federal law enforcement. The bottom line is this, you would not like someone coming into your home and making off with your collection. A wrongdoing is a wrongdoing.

[vic rzonca]

Unfriendly ground = very steep to overhanging and only accessible with mountaineering techniques. Any arrangement I have with property owners is my affair and have worked to developed them for years. As far as rape and plunder go, Google Earth and view a large quarry operation and get back to me. Rape and plunder indeed. I know the commercial quarry sites in my area are closed to the casual collector, liability issues. But I have been given mine tours and access to these locations by mine managers themselves, even driven to the blast pile. The inference that a random good find is somehow suspect leaves me uncomfortable. I guess in this age of corporate personhood there is room only for large scale growth, no cred given to the little guy's effort. When I was on the sharp end of the rope, I didn't see anyone else there, and I share this small bit of natural history for your edification and enjoyment, not for your innuendo, I find no joy in that. I think I'm going to give up this mineral collecting if I'm viewed as in it for profit. What happened to adventure!

[Jordi Fabre]

[nurbo]

I wholly agree with Vic too, but I thought the innuendo here was that poverty stricken miners and their families in third world countries should turn over the specimens they harvest for OUR benefit to the multi billion pound international mining companies so they can build roads with them, thus surrendering the feeble amount of extra money they make on top of the wages that we in the richer world would find laughable. I take it louis that you never ran a red light or parked in a no parking zone or any one of a thousand other things that fall into the grey areas of rules?

[alfredo]

There is a very large overlap between "legality" and "morality", but not everything that is legal is moral, and not everything that is illegal is immoral.

A poor miner who supplements his income by saving a specimen from the crushers, and who sells it to a collector or dealer for $50, rather than let the mining corporation crush it for its $0.50 worth of copper, that poor miner has technically committed theft, a crime. But I have no problem with that, and I praise him for his "crime". The specimen is worth far more to the cause of science and art than it is as electrical wire or water pipe.

I'm reminded also of the laws prohibiting fossil exports ("national paleontological treasures") from most South American countries. If a cement company crushes thousands of fossils a day to make cement powder, that is perfectly "legal". But if I rescue one of those fossils from the crushers and export it to a museum abroad, I have committed two "crimes": theft from the cement company and violation of the export laws regarding "national patrimony". I proudly state that I have no problem at all with people who commit such "illegal acts"!

[Tom H]

Mr. Rzonca,

I have been a lurker here and on Mindat for quite a while, but am posting now as I wanted to offer my sincere gratitude for posting your pictures and your story, and my encouragement to continue! It would be a pity for someone with the skill to extract such beauties (while dangling from a rope, no less!) to give up. "Louis Friend" (aka Samuel Fairfield) has a history of inflammatory posts, and of bannings and aliases on multiple message boards, so please do not take those comments to heart! I look forward to reading more of your wonderful finds as they progress!

And Samuel, how do you think all the Huang Gang specimens on your collection page made it from the mine (run by a Chinese corporation) to your collection? Miners snuck them out somewhere along the line, so as the saying goes, why throw stones?

Tom

[Jordi Fabre]

[John Medici]

No problem, Jordi. It is often best to ignore individuals who stray somewhat from reality.