FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Sydbarrett]

Hi everybody!
My name is Fred, I live in France, near Clermont ferrand, in the center of France (Auvergne).
I'm a fan of minerals. I'm actually working with a group of different people working for saving caves, mines and all human cavities. The french law wants that ancien owner of mines have to close all access to the mines. If the owner is unknown, states service charges to make close old cavities. They use different methods : Explosives, filling galeries with rocks or condamn the galeries with massive walls ( bunkers). They call it "securising".
When a mine is not securised, in case of accident the owner of the mine is responsible. In case of an unknown owner, the mayor of the city concerned by the ground is responsible.
With ths working group, organized by french federation of speleology, we are preparing a document. The objective is preserving all types of cavities: mines, catacombs, militarian installations from destruction.
A report will be send to different federations, geological associations with an objective : Make a law to give the possibilitty to save cavities, to keep access, and preserve this heritage of industry, history, military engineering ...

For this document, we have to know the situation in others countries :
- What does old mines become?
- Who is responsible in case of accident in a mine (or in any cavity)
- Is it possible to visit old cavities? In wich condition?

The more you can tell me, the more the document will be complete and will give us possibility to preserve every kind of cavities in France.

I'm sorry for my english, i don't think it's very good. I try to do my best.

Thanks a lot to everybody who can hepl us in our work.

Fred

[alfredo]

In some countries, ecologists and environmentalists have become supporters of those who want to leave access to underground mines open, to save the habitat for bats, snakes or other animals which live or hibernate underground. Perhaps in France, the need to protect bats might also make some environmentalists into your allies?

[trtlman]

Here in the states, I watched a TV show that showed a guy who had a business filling in sink holes that lead into caves and sealing up the other end of the cave and any other entrance. They filled the hole with expanding foam. One concern of their was that in this cave was a water supply, a small pond, and if anyone were to fall in it would be bad. The was water was a thick as pea soup and you can't tell how deep it is by looking at it, and if you fell in you would be disoriented not knowing which way is up or down since you wouldn't be able to see, also the water could contain gases and breaking the surface of the water would release the gases. The cave they showed was an old mine can't remember what for but there was nothing left to it and no life but I am sure they have filled in many other mines that still hold important minerals and animal life. I think they should fill in any sink holes to the mine and build a large door in the main entrance with a big lock to keep people that way some people could still get in keeping the mine in tact. I watched another show about a couple spelunkers and some places they went to were like this, a mine with a large door built in the main entrance, to get in you need to contact whoever is in charge of it, the city I think, and they would grant them entrance since they had the proper permits

[Les Presmyk]

The laws concerning such things are a bit convulated in the U.S.A., especially in the western states because the public lands are owned by each state or the federal government. If they are on private property, the land owner is responsible for liability. On public lands, it is the state or federal government.

In Arizona and New Mexico both the state and federal governments have programs to close these mines. The programs are hindered by a lack of funds but in Arizona, each mine is surveyed prior to closure for bats and other endangered species. If no species are found, the mine is closed using old tires and rock/dirt. If species are found, the mine openings have heavy railroad rails concreted in place with spacing in between to allow bats or whatever to move in and out.

[John Cesar]

A major copper company in Arizona is also employing expanding foam in particular to close vertical shafts. They put a light temporary bulk head across the shaft to start the foam base; then they fill the entire void with foam multiple feet thick. They stop the foam filling before it reaches the surface. They continue the closure with a significant top capping of rock and dirt. In several instances I saw small diameter pipes run through the plug and with wire screen across the opening - left reportedly for bat acess. The rock/dirt fill must be thick enough to keep those nasty crystal hunters out but I think they would likely use the rail/concrete approach to keep Phoenix collectors out.

At the recently burned out Glove shaft, the contractor used closed spaced box tubing up to 4 x 4 inch in size which was welded to anchor bolts drilled into the ground. The finished product looked like a Normandy bunker. Unfortunately they forgot that timber burns and bats bar-b-que when hit with welding slag or grinder sparks. The signs posted in the enclosures read that humans were being kept out to protect the bat and bat habitat.

In the San Juan Mtns of Colorado there is a proliferation of rock masonry walls across the front of adits. No steel was noted. These looked more like tourist walls.

Utah used rock bolts and chain link fencing across openings as a closure measure in the more remote old mines around Park City.

Hopefully France will employ a resonable approach to mine closures. Safety notwithstanding, geology and history are lost when mines are completely secured.

I dare suggest that no closure is 100 per cent secure if someone wants in bad enough.

[Peter]

Mines, quarries, roadcuts need to be protected from temporary human stupidity like covering up, filling, etc..... Should we do the same with archeological sites? Fotball stadions? Racing tracks?
Any geological or mineralogical important study site MUST be PROTECTED from hindering the entrance, filling with junk... each landowner should be kept responsible for NOT throwing JUNK into old mines.
Each booth has a historical but more importantly geological-mineralogical study interest. Our entire society is based on the use of minerals although perhaps a great majority is totally ignorant to it.
Old mine dumps need also to be protected. Some localities shoule be encouraged to study, sample, field collect at as long as the material is documented and taken care of. Only some pockets and exposure better be protected from removal as they may be more sigificant in situ rather than in drawers or cabinets.
One example is the Gerstenegg Kluft, a beautiful alpine cleft 14 meters long in the Swiss alps encountered during tunnel blasting to a hydroelectrical power station in the Grimselpass. Now, tourists, mineralogists, anyone may visit and look at this wonder of nature!
Mine sites should rather be cleaned up from human rubble except for huge excavator, min buildings etc which are historical part of the mining scene.

[Duncan Miller]

Many years ago, when I lived in Yorkshire, England, the local geological society organised regular field trips to local abandoned quarries to collect litter and clean up vegetation from the quarry faces, thus preserving these historic features for posterity. I don't know if they still do this, but getting local societies involved in active preservation surely would help. It is not easy though. For some time I have been agitating for the local Cape Town Gem and Mineral Club to adopt an abandoned tin mine on the slopes of Table Mountain, secure the entrance and clean up the surroundings, with no success.

In response to the original poster's request, in South Africa the mine owner is responsible for 'remediation' and where there is no traceable owner, the onus falls on the State, which does nothing, claiming a shortage of funds. There is no systematic recognition of abandoned mining sites as heritage, although some individual mines, like the Kimberley Big Hole for instance, have been proclaimed and are protected as tourist attractions.

Duncan

[chris]

Hi Fred,

A friend of mine is member of the association that lobbied the administration to save some of the accesses of La Gardette. They have a document explaining how they proceeded. If you are interested in, you can contact me via PM. I'll give you his email address.

Christophe

[John Medici]

At least some access to most mineralized properties should be allowed for wildlife and informed people, and some for museum and historical interest. Unfortunately, various legal systems have diverged from giving responsibility to the individual for his own actions. Even many chemicals we buy now are diluted to save us from ourselves.
Closures are indeed not necessarily secure. On obtaining permission to surface collect (for magnetite, biotite, etc.) on Faraday uranium mine property near Bancroft, Ontario, Canada recently, we noticed that the cement/pipe closure at the mine entrance had a hole in it (probably from sledgehammer use). That is one place where one might think twice before entering, considering residual radon and other factors. There are no universal solutions for keeping collecting sites available; each one has its own points of interest and peculiarities and risks.

[Sydbarrett]

Thanks a lot for all the answers.
I think we have the same problem everywhere : All the mines are closed, just a few of them are saved...


Chris : Of course the document of your friend intersted me ---> PM