FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Matt_Zukowski]

I have been taking to using the naming convention described above for all variety names. It makes it so much easier to sort files on a computer. Thus, even though everyone else refers to "Cobaltoan Calcite" or "Cobaltocalcite", I always use Calcite-(Co). This way all the calcites sort together in a directory, and all the Co varieties sort together as a subset of the calcites, which is what Calcite-(Co) is.

[alfredo]

Matt, we are talking about suffixes for species, not varieties, so if you use it for varieties too, you are indeed introducing irreparable confusion. For example, ardennite-(V) means a vanadium-dominant analogue of ardennite (a different species), not a vanadium-rich variety of ardennite.

[Matt_Zukowski]

Huh - I didn't know that. I see now that Ardennite-(As) and Ardennite-(V) are end members of Ardennite series. As end members they are separate species, not just varieties. But I also see people use Smithsonite-(Co) and Adamite-(Mn) for varieties, and figured that Calcite-(Co) would work fine.

Although i must yield to convention so people can understand what the heck I am talking about, I do not like the use of -(ligand) to make a separate species name. -(ligand) seems to me more of a "modifier", just like cobalto- or cobaltoan. We have wolframite for the series (and any uncharacterized intermediate), and then the separate names Hübnerite and Ferberite for the end members. Dolomite is a separate species because it represents a distinct mode between calcite and magnesite (if the series was complete then dolomite could not be a species name). If there was some mine that had cool looking crystals of Ardenite-(As) with 10% VO4, and people wanted to call it by a separate variety name, what would we call it - Vanadian Ardenite-(As)? It would be simpler to have a separate name for end member and then be able to use a modifier. Thus if Jordiite was the As rich end member of the Ardenite series, then Jordiite-(V) would be the cool variety with 10% VO4.

Finally, as you guys have indicated, it seems like Herderite should be the name of a series, because it has been used for both F and OH containing specimens. Rather than using -(F) and -(OH) for the end member separate species, I would rather use distinct names. How about Magawite for the F end member and Alfredoite for the OH end member. This way Magawite-(OH) or Hydroylmagawite or whatever can be used for a variety of Magawite with some OH in it.

Is Hancockite the lead-rich endmember of a series between itself and epidote or is it just lead-rich epidote?

[alfredo]

You provided a useful illustration of the dangers of varietal names in mineralogy!

Like any science, mineralogy evolves and the nomenclature evolves with it; can't remain static. Hancockite, now called epidote-(Pb) (and, like you, i don't really like the new name, and don't like renaming perfectly valid old minerals at all) is indeed a separate species from epidote, with Pb dominant, not a Pb-rich variety of epidote, and that is the reason that a lead-rich variety of epidote cannot be labelled "epidote-(Pb)". Chemical adjectives for varieties, like "vanadian", "cuprian", "plumboan", etc, are now being discouraged; the currently acceptable terminology being "lead-bearing" or "lead-rich', or "Pb-rich"...

cheers,
Alfredo

[Jordi Fabre]

This topic is an old friend in FMF:
Changing Mineral Nomenclature again ( https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=253 )
or
IMA or not IMA? ( https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=95 )

Jordi

[Duncan Miller]

In the case of minerals renamed with suffixes how should they be pronounced, e.g. should apatite-(CaF) be pronounced "carbonate fluorapatite", as on https://www.webmineral.com , or "apatite cee aye eff"? If the former, then it appears there are effectively two names for the mineral, one verbal and the other written!

[alfredo]

Don't fret too much about the apatites - The IMA has already admitted that the suffixes were badly chosen and will eventually have to be changed again! Meanwhile, I prefer to keep the old name, Fluorapatite, which everybody understands, leaves no room for confusion, is STILL being used in lots of professional literature, and I'll wait to see whether the next IMA decision on the topic makes more sense. Personally I hope it will be simply "Apatite-F", and I think there is a good chance that will happen, but... nothing official yet.

As for your question about pronunciation, I think you meant "calcium" rather than "carbonate". (Carbonate-apatite is now a variety rather than a species.)

[Duncan Miller]

Hello Alfredo

Thanks for your quick response. Actually I am not fretting about apatite, but about pronunciation. My question is valid for any species name that includes a suffix. How is one meant to pronounce it?

Duncan

[alfredo]

Duncan, the version I've heard mineralogists use in conversation is "apatite-cee aye eff", but I'm not aware of any official fatwa on the subject, so I guess it's whatever we feel personally comfortable with. (I personally feel least silly when I hear myself say "fluorapatite". Imagine when the amphiboles and tourmalines move to suffixes, with their multiple formula positions... we'll be tripping over our tongues and find ourselves accidentally reciting the alphabet. ;-))

[Jim Prentiss]

Hello Everyone,

Where to start. Well I will keep it short. I recently acquired a Hancockite specimen only to be caught up short with the naming debacle again. I agree that if it is a different species call it something else. It is like the old Bob Newhart show, with Daryl, his brother Daryl and his other brother Daryl.

Jim Prentiss