FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[mmauthner]

Material in most private collections is not lost to science or other research. First, as has been pointed out ( https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=1014 ) objects may be a bit inaccessible for a while, but even the stingiest collector has limited time with his or her collection. Second, and the primary point I wanted to make, is that there are innumerable instances of private collections as the source, if not driving factor, of research projects. How many new minerals or fossils were discovered by "amateur" collectors?
I fully support the idea of material (meteorites, minerals, fossils, gems, art...) being available to private collectors. The process of getting material from source to collection just needs to be open and perhaps in some cases controlled (I am thinking mostly about fossils and cultural property at his point...though operating mines are included in these thoughts)...but that is another topic.
Some of you know me, to those that do not, this is the opinion of a person who has been a museum professional for more than two decades.

Cheers,
Mark

[Peter Megaw]

I'll step in here and see if I can whip this topic upt to a frenzy!!! The argument that "scientific materials" should be the exclusive playthings of the academically annointed/credentialed is routinely thrown up by academics who want to keep the sandbox to themselves. It is commonly raised regarding fossils and fossil collecting on the grounds that only they can excavate them correctly and do the necessary science. This is often complete balderdash as demonstrated by several major fossil collectors who are very bit as careful to excavate and document correctly and actually produce breakthrough science that is not accepted until the results are co-opted by an academic. It also ignores the fact that most academics can't get the funding to excavate the huge number of fossils that get turned up and destroyed continuosly by erosion. (Meteorite pershability is perhaps higher than fossils since they are often composed of minerals that are unstable in the earth's atmosphere and must be collected and protected quickly).

It can easily be argued that academics have access to almost infinitely greater amounts of materials by cooperating with dedicated amateurs, as is borne out by many important recent discoveries of major fossils and meteorites. The converse of this is the number of "discoveries" made by graduate students who finally take the time to pore through the shelves and boxes in the back corners of museum storerooms where things routinely get "lost" for decades or centuries because no-one had the time or funding to fully process their findings.

I am not anti-academic, but I am opposed to academic snobbery and closed-mindedness. Many in the collector community work assiduously to get new and important finds into academic hands...and are often rewarded by having the academics expropriate the specimens without compensation or more than nominal credit. I believe that academics would be better served educating collectors on how to do things right and get them involved as soon as things look different without fear of having the find swiped. I think this would serve academics better than maintaining things should be left alone until they can get around to collecting themselves. There is a long and glorius history of academic/amateur cooperation that has benefited both groups...and science in general. It is actually not that long ago that academics even began to be distinguished from amateurs....

There is no exclusivity to the collector/commerical digger community for fakes...examples of shoddy academic work and/or fabrication are not hard to find.

[bugrock]

Hello all,

Peter's comments hit the nail on the head and actually applies to other areas of Natural History. My other interest is Lepidoptera and there is an incredible contribution to study of that order of insects by "amateurs". In both spheres, those payed to study what they are interested in, and those who do it out of self interest, there are stars and rogues or slackers.

The best academics appreciate the worth of good field workers and actively collaborate with and encourage their efforts.

Given the state of natural history institutions and collections these days we all need to work together. In the mineral world the fate of the Philadelphia Academy is a troubling example.

This initiates another observation. I am a relative newcomer to the mineral hobby but more than a few times now I have heard comments from collectors that intimate that we are the only ones who can afford good specimens these days or bemoan that they sold or donated this or that fine piece to a museum a few decades ago. This is reverse "wallet" elitist talk in my view. Yes, I'm certain there are many collectors who help out academic institutions with both specimens and donation checks. Personally I would be proud that something that passed through my hands is displayed for anyone to see and further I would take steps to assure that this remained the case as long as possible, even after my demise. We should all support the institutions we love with specimens, moral and financial support.

[John S. White]

Amen to everything that Peter Megaw wrote and Bugrock brought up a number of interesting thoughts. As a former curator of a major museum I am often surprised at how poorly the public understands the situation that many such museums face today. In general one can say that they welcome gifts of specimens, but they have to be somewhat selective with respect to what they can accept and nowadays they also find that they are more or less required to decline offers of gifts if the would be donor attempts to attach conditions upon them. One cannot assume, for example, that a donated specimen will be placed on exhibit, either soon or ever. Some museums desire non exhibit quality specimens simply because they are excellent reference specimens. Other museums (Houston comes to mind) do not maintain a reference collection so they are interested only in exhibit quality specimens, although their intention in accepting such may simply be to see it as a future exchange item. Acquisition budgets for all musems are very nominal so it is a tough challenge for the curator of a major museum with an important reference collection to decide what to spend those limited funds on. Do you blow the entire budget on a great exhibit piece, or do you attempt to acquire a large number of reference specimens at more modest prices, including, of course, type specimens of new species. At one time the describers of new species used to donate the type specimens but now many have discovered that they can market these and make a lot of money by selling them. This is, I believe, shameful, but it is being done on a large scale today, and it makes the acquisition of them really difficult for any museum that cares about having them. There are also collectors who offer specimens to museums in order to obtain a favorable tax deduction. Nothing wrong with this as long as the museum can easily justify accepting the pieces and the appraisals are properly handled, and there are no conditions.

A tiny window into the world of museums, there is so much more that can be and should be wrtiten on this subject but will save it for later if there is sufficient interest.;

[bugrock]

Case in point: Michigan is the state where I live and where my two sons now attend MSU (wish the Basketball teem luck!). Budget cuts are working their way through the institution. More than 20 undergraduate majors are being eliminated including Entomology which makes the hairs stick up on the back of my neck regarding their research collection (yes graduate education is still in place but will that be axed next?). I do not know the details but heard the Geology undergraduate program was also on the chopping block but a well healed individual convinced the institution to change their mind. Money does talk and yes you can make a difference!

I know this site tries to avoid commercial bias but what about the needs of public institutions? Personally I would not mind hearing of appeals for donations to public museums, grad students, research projects etc but perhaps there are other forums that pursue this.

And what is the status of museums and educational institutions outside of North America?

Might make an interesting path to follow in the forum.

Good night!