FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jordi Fabre]

In the recent March - April 2012 issue of the always excellent magazine Mineralogical Record, one article "A mineral collector's contemporary China" pages 265-268 from Thomas P. Moore catch my eye and generate in my mind some ideas that I would like share and discuss with the FMFers.

The article from Tom, explains a vision of the current situation of the Chinese market after several recent exhibits, new Shows and a brand new mineral collecting symposium which he was invited and where he did a talk. The whole article is excellent (as usual) but two particular phrases appealed my attention:

- Page 267: "...As see in Chenzou...In fact the internet probably is responsible for the fact that the price structure for Chinese specimens is hardly different (discouraging) from the prevailing international structure"

- Page 268 "...conversations revealed that many Chinese do not yet comprehend the importance to Westerns of crystal form, good specimen condition and locality documentation, and also the allure of "classic" localities. Here it seems, the internet, can be a positive force, illustrating nonstop the kinds of Western standards and mindsets"

Tom also comment the publication of a new Chinese magazine named "Mineral Lover" with photos of minerals specimens (taken from a Western web page) as well as a report on the 2011 Springfield Show. So, take the two paragraphs from Tom, add the apparition of a new Chinese magazine who is using for his first issue images of minerals from a western web page, shake it, mix it, and we arrive to the main question of this topic:

Internet is helping to point out the newer (for mineral collecting) countries and miners to the right direction or Internet is creating troubles because is showing too much prices and consequently the value of the specimens and it destroys the market generating crazy, foolish, prices?

I would love hear the opinions of everybody as well as participate in the discussion (if it starts ;-)
During the last years I hear a lot of many different opinions about this topic and what surprised me when I hear them was the intensity and also sometimes "the rage" which the discussants express their opinions, so I believe it could be a good idea discuss this in a public space and collect the (I believe) very diversified and opposite feelings about it.

[vic rzonca]

Very interesting. A little off the point of your question, Jordi, could you name the web page that was "borrowed" from for the article? With permission I assume.

It seems that the Internet is becoming or eliminating the middleman. The fellow who pulls the specimens out of the ground looks on his smart phone and there is the nearly the whole market at his finger tips. This will not stop the aggressive collector from doing his own leg work, but when he gets there he will find a much more worldly seller/miner,who might never have been off the farm.

[strahler]

Jordi,

Really and interesting topic, and could be thought of in so many ways. As someone who had a website in 1996 selling minerals, I was a very early adopter, and I like what the net has brought us. As they say, the world is at our fingertips. I will elaborate on my thoughts below.

1) Personally, I have met so many amazing people through the internet, and been exposed to so many new things. Never would I have imagined seeing great new finds, almost instantly. In the past, I would have had to travel to producing countries, and thus would be very limited in my exposure. The opening of the world, through avenues such as FMF, is truly amazing. This too me, the greatest prevailing force of the internet.

2) As for pricing, one cannot think that the internet can change market dynamics, when it comes to pricing. The market will be, what people will pay, this is the case for any good or service. Now, with that said, I do believe the internet has created a much broader group of collectors, which has in turn created much more competition for great pieces. Thus, pricing has escalated very rapidly. Too me, this has been the net effect on pricing. Historically oriented collectors do not like it, newer collectors deal with it. That is not to say my opinion on pricing, that is another view, for another topic. Although, when one compares mineral pricing on common items, to everyday things such a car, house, and other tangible items; mineral prices seem a little bit off. But then again, minerals are and always have been, a luxury. Foolish prices, no matter what commodity, destroy their own market. Look at oil, when it went to $135 a barrel, the world could not sustain itself. It outgrew it's market. In the end, market dynamics will always flush this out.

3) One tough item, for many people that like minerals shows, is that minerals are being sold everyday. It used to be that dealers saved up concentrations of collections and new finds for shows, this is not case now. As a result, I personally believe the best pieces get sold quickly, and the level/quality of inventory at shows has declined. This was a common topic of discussion in Tucson this year.

Overall though, my opinion of the net, is a very positive one. When I weigh everything, there is so much I have gained from having the internet.

[Jordi Fabre]

I would like add to the discussion the link to the article "Internet Mineral Sales" published in the Mineralogical Record in the May-June 2006 issue and that, despite the time passed after its publication, I believe still makes some interesting points to complete this thread.

[lluis]

Good evening

Well, Jordi knows me.
He is a better judge of me than I could never be.

Internet had opened me the possibility to find rare species that I like. Before, certainly, I could buy by mail lists, that if seller was proficient, bear a description through which you could imagine the piece. I had the luck to find one and I have bought from her many specimens.
Others, well, one time and never again. Items directly to junk. Not even a complain note. Why?
With a photo, no risk: you see what you buy. And, if not sure, one could always ask. My experience is that the majority are always honourable and answers as well as they can.
In this, internet is great.

That prices have rocketed?
Well, sure in some uninformed sellers (probably amateurs) that do not grasp values.
But as Alfredo said, internet is the great democratizator.

That there are many fakes/missidentified items there? By sure!
But I feel that our world has been expanded.

Nevertheless, I would not change internet for a visit to a dealer. He has far more stock than he is able (or willing) to place in internet... :-)

With best wishes

Lluís

P.D,; and yes, I beleive that a collector should grow a relation with the dealer in which he has more confidence.

[Joseph DOliveira]

I remember clearly in 1998 at the Denver Show a conversation I had with a mineral dealer who was bemoaning the lack of young collectors and the dwindling client base. After listening carefully for a while, I asked him how he expected the young collectors to take up a hobby when in his inventory, there wasn't a specimen priced under $25 and that was the same throughout the show.

For the most part the internet has reduced the cost of mineral purchases for collectors as well as increasing the variety of minerals available. For the small price of postage, you can purchase a specimen from a world wide locality directly from a foreign dealer and have it delivered to your door with a few key strokes. The travel cost such as gas, accommodations, and meals to attend a mineral show in one of the major centres is rather significant, that same expenditure if applied to postage, would result in the collector being able to afford more specimens.

Having made the previous statement, the one big draw back to purchasing on line is that you have no idea of the quality of specimen that you will receive, as a carefully taken picture can turn a pigs ear into a silk purse and it is easy to hide damage. Many of my clients have tried on line purchases and have continued purchasing at shows simply because they have had experiences where the on line specimens have not lived up to their expectations.

As a dealer, the internet has allowed me to build relationships with other international dealers and given me the ability to source minerals from localities that I would not normally be able to attain. It has driven up my costs as wholesalers are now expecting prices more comparable to retail because of internet pricing.

Personally I only purchase specimens for my collection on line from reputable dealers or at mineral shows where I can actually handle the specimen. This guarantees me the quality item that I am looking for and also insures I have some form of resolution should the specimen not be as advertised. For most long time dealers, their business is their reputation, the same cannot be said for some of those that sell their items on the internet.

[Carles Millan]

[Pierre Joubert]

[Louis Friend]

I have never had any problems with purchasing specimens from abroad. I bought many specimens locally but the chap I bought them off also introduced me to his wholesale contacts abroad. One particular wholesaler provides great photos and additional ones on request and being a wholesaler you pay 1/5 of what the retail store price would be. They sell single specimens or lots - it depends what you want.

Tomorrow I will be uploading photos of a great Arsenopyrite with fluorite on Magnetite from Inner Mongolia that weighs 2.3 kilos and is huge. If I had to pay retail prices, I could not afford it on a teacher’s salary.

I think it is important that collectors also let other collectors know where there are great deals, but not wanting to “step on other vendors toes” I will only provide this information in PM’s if the moderators permit it of course!

[Pierre Joubert]