FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Peter]

Tucson 2016

Still the golden ages of mineralogy. So much exceptionally fine specimens available. I saw many specimens, many many for sale, old classics, which I never ever saw on any shows before during 40 years of show attending!!! That tells a lot of the great availability. I got some of them, some friends got, some I could not afford but I am not whining for that :)

There was just an incredible amount of very fine specimens to be had. Now, of course dealers who had some nice rarities for years an no one bothered looking, may not bring some things for years for this reason. There are still plenty of dealers who carry a board spectrum of specimens, although some have indeed specialized in Round Mountain Golds or whatever it may be. Do not cry for that. That makes it easier to select who to visit and who not to depending on your preferences.

I bought several sweet specimens under 100 USD, while a small suite of Hambergite crystals were 8k and a little steep for what they were. I got several fine Dalnegorsk specimens, far better than anything available the past 20+ years and for reasonable prices. Before the show I set aside several interesting and fine specimens, some highly priced but then one just decide if it is worth it or not.

Among the Brazilian dealers I used to find some rarities in my early Tucson shows 1989-early 90s. Carlos Menezes still has some, Alvaro Lucio sometimes.

I managed to find exceptional Tapiolite crystal in vugs in cleavelandite, and other nice ugly black pegmatite specimens for reasonable but not cheap prices.

And for sure I missed many things I would have liked to have, either alread sold or simply not seen in al the boxes hiding in the rooms, in the booths… Bringing ones family certainly reduces the available time for going through each room, each box as I used to do years ago, thus quick scanning of rooms and concentrated efforts is the selected way this year.

Peoples attitude to mineral shows tell something bout their mentality. One simply choose the minerals one can afford and have interest of. Of course, many specimens have high prices, such were rarely available at all before and some of the old classics I saw at this years Tucson show were in fact more reasonable then what they would have been in the past. Not only the most exceptional esthetic specimens reach very high asking prices.

I did also see very poor specimens from classic localities of common minerals where asking prices were in the upper XY 000 USD and where I have field collected myself specimens of the same specie also at classic localities, 1000 times better and let friend shave for some hundred dollars or even given away. Such is the world and thus one does not need more than to notice that this dealer has no clue or is just trying to get some big fish on a small hook.

Keep the spirit up lads and gals. Tucson is an experience. Come, enjoy, spend time with people, make new friends.

Cheers and se you perhaps in Tucson 2017.

[Jesse Fisher]

I'm sure there are some out there who can afford a $30K salt shaker for their fries. Will it change the situation if we continue to whinge on about it? Doubt it. Best to focus on what we can do. This year I came up with several really nice things for the collection. For the most part, these were part of a trade deal, and we likely could not have afforded to spend the cash for the asking price. Still, I think it worked out well.

[Josele]

After seeing how prices of high end specimens are rising year after year to an unaffordable level for most collectors, I couldn't help but smile when I saw this old comment from more than 200 years ago in Don Lum's report: 2016 Tucson Show- A Look Back

[Byron Anderson]

I have a couple thoughts to share below after my return from Tucson 2016. Not directly related to pricing, but this thread seems the most appropriate as I don't want to interfere with Gail and Don's posts (and others providing highlights of the shows).

1. I have been going to the Tucson mineral shows off and on since 1988 and usually go at the end of the show schedule with the strategy of getting the best deals on remaining specimens at the hotel shows that dealers are eager to unload and not pack home. I then hit the TGMS show with the philosophy of it being more like visiting a museum and simply enjoy the sites and sounds, and if I happen to find a good deal then it's my lucky day. However - for those of you that did not attend this year and follow a similar strategy please be aware that the majority of hotel dealers were packed up or in the process of packing up on Saturday. This has always been the case, but never to the extent I witnessed this year, with at least 2/3 of the dealers gone from the Hotel Tucson Center show on Saturday. A few dealers I talked to about this said that it was not economical for them to stay open once the main (TGMS) show opened as it sucked potential clients away. Given this trend I have seen over the last 5-10 years culminating in the situation this year I likely will no longer go the last weekend, but will instead plan my visit around the beginning or middle of the show. The Westward Look show will likely become my "new" museum visit. This decision is also based on the common rumor that many specimens may change hands multiple times during the month long event, resulting in higher prices at the end - especially at the TGMS show. Obviously these are rumors that I cannot substantiate, but I've heard it enough that I'm willing to test the waters and see what the beginning or middle of the show is like.

* The second comment on the show this year is in regards to the snobbishness and elitism that so permeates many of the high end dealers at the TGMS show that I find it hard to stomach. I don't want to take away from the contributions of many of these dealers to the hobby as it is through their efforts that we are seeing more mind-numbing specimens than in the history of the hobby (maybe arguable?). And I understand they have a certain clientele they have to cater to and with that a somewhat specific business image. This year I found myself making the conscious decision to not even visit their booths. Of course they don't care that I don't visit, because I don't have the funds to play in their game, so it's likely a mutual feeling, but it still makes be a bit sad. I recognize that I am speaking out of both sides of my mouth as I admitted above I may attend the Westward Look show next year, but there are still a handful of high end dealers that don't make me feel like a pauper when admiring their "fine art" items.

*To not end on a negative note let me finish with the comment that these issues really are not that significant in the scheme of the Tucson Experience and the positives still far outweigh the negatives. I had so many great experiences with dealers this year (several who are members and commonly post on this forum) that the event continues to be a highlight of my life and I have more excitement leading up to it than any holiday or vacation I go on. It truly is a part of who I am and perhaps these small unsatisfying changes in the hobby are there to just remind me to have a greater appreciation for that great deal on that hard to find specimen or local, that dealer that was willing to show me his recent finds in the bathroom of their hotel room, and that wonderful exchange with the Russian dealer who didn't speak a lick of English. It's still Tucson to me.

[crocoite]

Hi Byron. I have been to Tucson 5 times, and each year found that many of the Hotel dealers generally started to close on the Tuesday. Some because they need time to prepare for setting up at the main show, others because trade drops off anyway. So the Wednesday is a good day to do something different, like visiting the mineral collection at Arizona U.

[Bob Harman]

GAIL, Thanks for taking all your Tucson pix! ( TUCSON, 2016. And away we go.... )
The prices accompanying many of the pix are just reenforcing what Jordi had to say on his related Tucson thread. The truly ikon and unique specimens might command astronomical prices, but many of the other nice, but otherwise unspectacular, examples have become obscenely overpriced. I purchased many Elmwood Tennessee pieces better than those just shown for less than $75 a few years ago and now the prices on the specimen labels are ridiculous. I think many collectors of modest means are being priced out of the market and a collapse might be coming in the not too distant future??!! CHEERS.....BOB

[Jean Sendero]

Bob, the word collapse maybe exaggerated but in my opinion, a correction is required and will happen. Also note as well that similar specimens from one dealer to the other can also have a 10 fold difference in price (i.e. $500 vs $5,000). One must always look around and gets to know which can deliver which.
Cheers
Jean

[alfredo]

There won't be any general across-the-board price crash, because of the strange way the specimen market works. One gets "mini-crashes" on large numbers of specimens all the time. Many dealers put out a specimen with a lot of zeros, on the off chance that they just might catch a big fish who really wants it and doesn't care about the price, and that happens just often enough to make the exercise worthwhile. If that fish fails to materialize (usually the case), then the specimen is moved to a different venue at a far lower price. So that equals a "mini crash" for that individual specimen. Happens all the time, and has done for decades. So lets not hold our collective breaths waiting for the "big crash" that will lop off a couple zeros from all the prices in the high-wattage booths. Isn't going to happen.

[Gail]

We saw vastly overpriced things and vastly underpriced things, depending on what you are used to seeing. And the more knowledge a person has, the better the understanding of the trends. For those that sell very high market, they have customers who expect to see that, those customers rely on their dealer to have "nothing but the best" and even if we think it isn't, they think it is. You always think of that dealer as having the very most aesthetic, undamaged pieces and you KNOW you are paying top dollar for them, or Euro. Then to see that same piece discounted a year later? Nope, that's not smart marketing on the part of the dealer, so they quietly let some of those pieces go to second tier sales markets if they don't sell, or they lock them away for a few years and then reintroduce them. I often hear dealers say that someone died and they got the collection back, but I wonder if they aren't just pulling it out of its hiding place and trying again under the guise of getting it back? Who knows, I just know that education is a key factor, disposable income another. It all goes to making the mineral world what it is.
I don't begrudge anyone selling a mineral specimen for a lot of money if it is a mutual positive experience. That money gets injected into mining, buying collections, cleaning and trimming and that benefits us all. You just have to say NO if you don't want to pay the price, or think of it as insanity all the way around, but that hasn't stopped the new people coming in, in fact it has really caught the attention of investors and art collectors and people looking for a new hobby. I found some great bargains at the Tucson show, the dealers were very happy we bought from them, and we were happy we didn't pay exorbitant prices, a win win if ever there was one.
We started collecting 11 years ago, we don't know the "good old days" other than the stories, so perhaps we don't have the same shock as old timers. But we sure know how to thank someone for showing us a good rock, and then saying "No thanks" and walking away when we think it is over priced. And to note, I have waited on some pieces that were first displayed with a very high price tag, till the price was more to my liking, and I often get them at a much lower price because time was my friend. And, I have time....
Cheers and Rock ON!

[Jesse Fisher]

Another often overlooked factor contributing to the ever-increasing cost of mineral specimens is the drastic changes that have occurred in recent years to the sources of these specimens. When I first started to go to major shows like Tucson in the mid-1980s there were lots of mineral specimens coming from mines in many places, including Mexico, Peru, Tsumeb, Katanga, the Indian zeolite fields, and many more. One could literally find rooms full of specimens from these locations, and if one had the ability to spot a bargain and the time to look through dozens (if not hundreds) of flats, a good collection could be built without spending a fortune.

Sadly, times have changed. The minerals from all those mines were cheap because they came from commercial working mines that supported themselves through extracting ore. The specimens were a byproduct and were essentially free to those who had the desire and access to collect them. Most commercial mines today operate on a much larger scale and are very mechanized, meaning that miners rarely even get a chance to visit and collect at an active face before everything is blasted to pea-gravel and hauled out for processing.

With the exception of a few places such as Milpilas and perhaps some of the Chinese and Bulgarian mines, most specimen-producing mines are now operated with the intent of recovering specimens rather than ore. This means that the specimens must bear the cost of recovery. Gem-producing mines have long been a good example of this. From personal experience, I can tell you specimen mining isn't cheap, and if you don't believe me, go talk to Joe Dorris or Bryan Lees.

With the diminishing flow of specimens from new sources, the market for buying and selling already assembled collections heats up, and the laws of supply and demand dictate pricing. Things change, always have and always will. The best option is to know what you really want, learn how to spot a bargain, and be prepared to spend a lot of time looking at stuff. And I agree with Alfredo - I really do not think there will ever be an overall crash (or "adjustment") in pricing, as the hobby has attracted far more "deep pockets" than in years past.

[Jean Sendero]

Gail, Jesse and all others,
I fully agree with all your points of discussions. The market is what it is for what ever reason. This year at the show and through other contacts, despite being somewhat "stunt" by some of the rising prices, again, and having seen "return" specimens at the same inflated prices than previous years, I still managed to find 19 new specimens for the collection at reasonable prices (managed to bust the budget but, aren't we all inflicted by the same passion) with excellent to good quality specimens (i.e. in my display case vs drawer) as some were more unusual Mexican localities or unusual ugly rarities from Mexico.
Keep the hobby alive and accessible for everyone.
Cheers
Jean

ps. apologies for the long sentence.

[Joseph DOliveira]

Not to flog a dead horse but I thought I would add my two cents on the topic of prices at the annual Tucson show. Every year I attend as a dealer to purchase my inventory for the coming show season and as a collector to find that special piece. This year in particular, I was also handicapped by the low Canadian Peso, which dropped like a stone only a few weeks before the show.

With a lot of trepidation I set out on the days prior to the official opening to hunt down some deals and hopefully start filling my inventory needs. I was genuinely surprised at how many dealers were open in late January and was able to purchase quite a good portion of my needs before the official opening. Surprisingly, the strong US dollar had also affected other currencies and for the most part prices with the foreign dealers were comparable to last year.

I spent every day of my three weeks going from venue to venue and looking in every nook and cranny for that surprise deal that everyone missed. In the end, my perseverance paid off, I returned home with a few new additions to my collection and and filled most of my inventory requirements. While I am in agreement that some prices have certainly ratcheted up this year, I was still able to find a few really good buys. As an aesthetic collector, I just changed my focus to the specimens that were more available and more reasonably priced.

In the end, as with any commodity, demand will always drive mineral prices. The Tucson show is more than a buying trip, it's an opportunity to make new friends, enjoy great Mexican food and the pleasure of sunny skies and warm dry weather.

[VRigatti]

I apologize if someone has already mentioned this, but another factor in rising prices is access to internet sites as well as forums that discuss mineral shows and high end specimens. I'm not saying that is a bad thing because I love FMF and other sites. A specimen miner in S. America, Africa or Asia is now able to see what pieces retail for at mineral shows, as well as those prices that are posted on websites. That miner then becomes a lot more intelligent about his treasure's true value to a collector. That has a strong affect in raising the price of a specimen right when it comes out of the pocket, which in turn raises the prices at shows and across the spectrum, because the final seller has to maintain some kind of profit margin.
As a collector my best weapon is to be educated on what I am buying/collecting, and I buy pieces that I enjoy and view as investments over the long term. When Sweet Home Rhodos first hit the market in the late 90s I was shocked at the "high prices" being asked, and didn't buy any. Now almost 20 years later I really regret that decision....