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A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
Variscite? Turquoise?
  
  Index -> FOR BEGINNERS: What is it? Where is it from?
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 12:55    Post subject: Variscite? Turquoise?  

I'm a beginner - working my way through grandpa's collection. Thanks for any help you might have!

Even with google and my field guide, sometimes it's tough to definitively ID things.



ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1580772427.967746.jpg
 Mineral: Tortoise Variscite? Turquoise?
 Locality:
USA
 Dimensions: See file comment
 Description:
1. Smaller cab - 4 grams - 33mm by 24mm, 3mm thick

2. Larger round piece - 17 grams - 37mm by 50mm, 4.5mm thick

3. Triangular piece - 13 grams - 50mm by 40mm, 4.5mm thick
 Viewed:  747 Time(s)

ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1580772427.967746.jpg



ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1580772377.998081.jpg
 Mineral: Tortoise Variscite? Turquoise?
 Dimensions: 7 grams - 37mm by 50mm, 4.5mm thick
 Description:
1. Smaller cab - 4 grams - 33mm by 24mm, 3mm thick

2. Larger round piece - 17 grams - 37mm by 50mm, 4.5mm thick

3. Triangular piece - 13 grams - 50mm by 40mm, 4.5mm thick
 Viewed:  746 Time(s)

ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1580772377.998081.jpg


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Josele




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 13:45    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Hello X (sorry I don't know your name), welcome to FMF.

When asking for identification should provide the maximum of additional data, as is stated in the introduction thread of this section: Asking: "What is this? / Where is it from?"

There are at least two minerals in your samples, the greenish one could be any of the ones you cited or many other. Dyed magnesite and other minerals are widely used to imitate turquoise.

May be when you give more data someone can help more.

Cheers.
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StumptownJoe




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:07    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Hello Josele -

I’m Joe - thank you for your desire to help out. I have read the posting instructions, but thank you for providing the link. I apologize for the separate login - I logged in to a different computer with an old FMF profile I wasn’t aware of. I am Bridgetown Treasures. I’ll take care of the duplicate profiles.

I have included all of the information I have on these specimens. If I knew a precise location, I would certainly include it. I’m not sure if I understand fully - are you saying you think these are not all the same material? The difference in color is due to the smaller cab being lightly polished. I’m a novice, but I’m quite certain these 3 pieces are of the same mineral.

Other than exact location of origin, what information would help you?
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:12    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Your photos show 3 small cut and polished greenish-blue copper minerals. Not much more can be said from only the photos. There are several similar copper minerals that look very similar in photos. Only in person examination or analysis can reliably tell them apart.

Of paramount importance is where they originally were found. If found where variscite is commonly found, there might be variscite present. If found where turquoise occurs, maybe that is present and so forth. True turquoise is rare; as Josele noted there are common turquoise imitations to complicate identification matters.

It also should be noted that the example sizes you give for the identification are irrelevant as it can be seen that all 3 small pieces fit into the palm of your hand. Also, for identification purposes, weight is largely irrelevant; it is the density of the example that would be of value. BOB
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:14    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Thanks for the help everyone - have a great day. I apologize that I don't have any relevant information.
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:19    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

As an addendum, I suggest taking these (and any other pieces for identification) to your local club, museum ,or university. Someone there will certainly look at them in person to help with their identification. Bob
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Josele




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:19    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

StumptownJoe wrote:
... I’m not sure if I understand fully - are you saying you think these are not all the same material? ...
Hello, Joe, no, I meant the black one, your samples are rocks (mix of minerals), metamorphic rocks.

I think that without a proper analysis will be hard to distinguish between the many minerals with this looking, most of them containing copper.
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:21    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Thank you Bob -
I think this beginner's forum is a bit advanced for me. I am working through my grandfather's estate and enjoying learning about his extensive rock and mineral collection. Some specimens are labeled with locations, some are not. Visuals and physical features are all I have in some cases, but I understand that isn't sufficient here.
Thank you again!
Joe
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 14:23    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Josele wrote:
StumptownJoe wrote:
... I’m not sure if I understand fully - are you saying you think these are not all the same material? ...
Hello, Joe, no, I meant the black one, your samples are rocks (mix of minerals), metamorphic rocks.

I think that without a proper analysis will be hard to distinguish between the many minerals with this looking, most of them containing copper.


There is no black specimen in these photos. The smaller cab appears darker in the photo because it has been polished. In true light it is dark green. Thanks for you responses!
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SteveB




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 15:51    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

BridgetownTreasures wrote:

There is no black specimen in these photos. The smaller cab appears darker in the photo because it has been polished. In true light it is dark green. Thanks for you responses!


Here is the primary reason you should read the post responses and the linked post newbies just ignore. Photos are not colour accurate nor will they even appear close to accurate on most people screens which are not colour calibrated. Colour IS a vital component in identification but it is only part of the equation and on my colour calibrated system (I do photo archival and restoration work) that polished cab is black and the lighter portions are a dullish green. With the photos alone some will assume the rocks are two separate minerals while others may see therocks as a single mineral with varying colours.

As Bob has pointed out we NEED more information to offer help, which is why you need to follow the advice given. YOU need to put effort into providing useful information to help us narrow down the possibilities in order to help you. As suggested a local club, museum or university is a good step if you are unable or unwilling to do any tests yourself or provide further information. Its just how geology works, it takes effort not a photo alone. Getting a good hardness value of both the light and dark portions using proper hardness scribes (not household equivalents which are meant for a rough approximation often in the field, they do not give accurate figures) will help immensely. If you visit the geology department of a local university they may have equipment to show you how to get accurate data for hardness and density, streak colour and acid reaction etc. Size and weight dont offer anything much towards identification.

Its a “give a man a fish” “teach a man to fish” situation, having someone give you the answer wont help at all with the next specimen. A few simple tests learnt with some guidance on what to look and feel for will serve you well for a lifetime.
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 16:38    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Wow. I am not in the right place at all. I'm not trying to be difficult, I read all of the posts that you seem think I ignored. I read post responses. I am a beginner, trying to ID a piece, that's all. I looked for the forum marked for beginners. I read the instructions. I entered all the info I had. I'm totally surprised to be chided for not providing better information and for "not putting in the work". (Wow, truly.) That, along with the ALL CAPS emphasis, is simply not polite or called for in a beginner's forum with someone who clearly needs guidance, not to be told they are "unwilling to put in work" - where did that even come from? I simply came here to get some info.

This is not a forum for beginners - I came to learn, and while its expected that people will request more info if needed, the manner in which it's happening here is not welcoming or helpful. I'm very sorry that my post has occupied so much of your time. I'm sure everyone here is a perfectly nice person irl - but this is not the reception I have ever experienced on any of the forums I have ever participated in. You've succeeded in making me feel very foolish and out of line. I think it's pretty clear that was not my intention.

"Teach a man to fish?" Seriously? "Telling you the answer won't help with the next specimen"? What? This thread is literally called "FOR BEGINNERS: What is it? Where is it from?" You may think I'm being overly sensitive - and honestly I wasn't going to respond at all - but I believe in manners and speaking to people courteously, and it's not a difficult thing to do. You all have a great week.
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Kevin Schofield




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PostPosted: Feb 04, 2020 18:00    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

BridgetownTreasures wrote:
Wow. I am not in the right place at all. I'm not trying to be difficult, I read all of the posts that you seem think I ignored. I read post responses. I am a beginner, trying to ID a piece, that's all. I looked for the forum marked for beginners. I read the instructions. I entered all the info I had. I'm totally surprised to be chided for not providing better information and for "not putting in the work". (Wow, truly.) That, along with the ALL CAPS emphasis, is simply not polite or called for in a beginner's forum with someone who clearly needs guidance, not to be told they are "unwilling to put in work" - where did that even come from? I simply came here to get some info.

This is not a forum for beginners - I came to learn, and while its expected that people will request more info if needed, the manner in which it's happening here is not welcoming or helpful. I'm very sorry that my post has occupied so much of your time. I'm sure everyone here is a perfectly nice person irl - but this is not the reception I have ever experienced on any of the forums I have ever participated in. You've succeeded in making me feel very foolish and out of line. I think it's pretty clear that was not my intention.

"Teach a man to fish?" Seriously? "Telling you the answer won't help with the next specimen"? What? This thread is literally called "FOR BEGINNERS: What is it? Where is it from?" You may think I'm being overly sensitive - and honestly I wasn't going to respond at all - but I believe in manners and speaking to people courteously, and it's not a difficult thing to do. You all have a great week.


Hi Joe,

you will have to pardon our Australian colleague. He is wont to bouts of distemper, usually at folk he perceives to be failing to follow the rules, and he definitely has a bit of a tone with the caps lock!

Let me try to be of slightly more help. The "extra information" that people here are looking for are the simple tests that are included in the "Beginners Guide" that was linked in a prior message.

These would include hardness (will a knife scratch it, will it scratch glass and so on), streak (does it leave a coloured stripe on a piece of unglazed tile), does a simple acid dissolve it (acetic acid...white vinegar for example).

Also try for rather better photographs...neutral background, indirect sunlight for example will help us to see the colours and details better.

And then of course, there is Bob's suggestion of trying to hook up with a local mineral group. Most of us geologists and collectors are much better able to help from a rock-in-hand rather than a picture. That may be a real help if your Granddad left you a lot of pieces...could save a lot of time.

The final piece of advice I would offer is to beware of descriptors that pop up in the more mystical or lapidary parts of the internet. "Tortoise" variscite and "spiderweb" turquoise are lapidary or metaphysical descriptions that sometimes don't play well in circles such as ours with more hard-core mineral folk.

Good luck sorting through the collection. Don't be discouraged, and you'll learn a lot and hopefully develop a real passion for the hobby.

Kevin

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Rob Schnerr




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PostPosted: Feb 05, 2020 04:02    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Hi Joe, I am as surprised as you are about the reaction you received from Steve B. I really do hope you're not already chased away, because i am curious about that collection of your grandfather and hope you keep on posting.

Hi Kevin, I support your reaction.

Cheers,
Rob
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 05, 2020 12:26    Post subject: Re: Tortoise Variscite? Spiderweb Turqoise?  

Thank you Kevin & Rob - That's reassuring. Despite the fist-waving, I won't get off the lawn quite yet. ;-)

Cheers,
Joe
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Feb 05, 2020 12:58    Post subject: Variscite? Turquoise?  

Hi Joe,

Your slices looks as Variscite from Utah (check https://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loctxt=utah&min=4156 ) but even if the comments of SteveB could look a little bit offensive, int the end he is right. You should do some simple tests like the hardness to help us to better determinate what do you have. Otherwise our answers, like mine, can be just propositive but not definitive.

BTW, I already changed the title of this thread. "Tortoise Variscite?" "Spiderweb Turqoise?" These don't help to get proper answers... 😁
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BridgetownTreasures




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PostPosted: Feb 05, 2020 14:40    Post subject: Re: Variscite? Turquoise?  

Thank you Jordi - I appreciate your advice and I'll do my best to gather more info.
Best,
Joe
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