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Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)
  
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Julie Wilson




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PostPosted: Mar 08, 2021 18:47    Post subject: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

Last Year Warner purchased the majority of the purple creedite find at Navidad Mine. We recently got back the first round from the cleaners. As we are looking at these pieces and the rest of the parcel the question of pink vs purple keeps coming up. There are some pieces that I have to call "pink," some are definitely "purple<" and others range the gambit between. Without access to a Munsell Color Chart descriptions include lavender, lilac, rose etc. Some pieces have crystals of both pink and purple.
From my research I am struggling to find any examples with this strong and distinct pink. We would love to connect with someone who can help us figure out if something different makes pink compared to purple. Having spoken to someone more knowledgeable than myself I understand that this could be more difficult than I first believed. They explained that creedite is a fluorine rich mineral and the fluorine often causes color through "color zones." Color zones were described as zones in the crystals where odd things happen that bend or absorb light. Given this information we are unsure of how to proceed. In the past Warner would have asked Dr. James Carter at UTD. His unfortunate passing has left unsure of who to contact.
I am hoping that input from those more knowledgeable than myself will get us going in the right direction.
Any input, opinions, feedback etc is much appreciated.



Navidad creedite 102 cropped for upload.jpg
 Mineral: Creedite
 Locality:
Navidad Mine, Abasolo, Rodeo, Municipio de Rodeo, Durango, Mexico
 Dimensions: 17cm x 13.8cm x 8cm
 Description:
Pink/Purple Creedite on quartz over fluorite, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad), Abasolo, Rodeo, Rodeo Municipality, Durango, Mexico

©Ragan
 Viewed:  1219 Time(s)

Navidad creedite 102 cropped for upload.jpg



Navidad Creedite 106 for upload.jpg
 Mineral: Creedite
 Locality:
Navidad Mine, Abasolo, Rodeo, Municipio de Rodeo, Durango, Mexico
 Dimensions: 16.2cm x 8.7cm x 5.8cm
 Description:
Purple Creedite on Matrix. Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad),Abasolo, Rodeo, Rodeo Municipality, Durango, Mexico

©Ragan
 Viewed:  1219 Time(s)

Navidad Creedite 106 for upload.jpg



pink and purple with fluorite for upload.jpg
 Mineral: Creedite
 Locality:
Navidad Mine, Abasolo, Rodeo, Municipio de Rodeo, Durango, Mexico
 Dimensions: 4.1cm x 2.9cm x 0.9cm
 Description:
Pink and Purple Creedite with Fluorite, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad), Abasolo, Rodeo Municipality, Durango, Mexico
 Viewed:  1220 Time(s)

pink and purple with fluorite for upload.jpg



Navidad purple creedite cropped.jpg
 Mineral: Creedite
 Locality:
Navidad Mine, Abasolo, Rodeo, Municipio de Rodeo, Durango, Mexico
 Dimensions: 7.1cm x 3.2cm x 2cm
 Description:
Purple Creedite, Navidad Mine (mina Navidad), Abasolo, Rodeo, Rodeo Municipality, Durango, Meixco
 Viewed:  1218 Time(s)

Navidad purple creedite cropped.jpg


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Pete Richards
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PostPosted: Mar 08, 2021 19:19    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

Looks to me like it may be a question of the color of the matrix underneath the crystals. Purple creedite is on dark-colored matrix, pink is on light colored matrix or is thick enough that the matrix effect does not show through.

If it's not something simple like this, the answer will be very elusive. My guess is that the only difference between pink and purple is an aesthetic one, and that could cut either way for different folks.

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SteveB




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PostPosted: Mar 08, 2021 19:32    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

I would suggest elemental anaylsis as the way forward to explain the colour variation as all the examples are from the same location. The ratios of the key elements in the makeup of the creedite could vary and the two main colours (distinctly pink and purple, not the similar shades) may show spikes of trace elements only in one colour and not the other. Have you closely examined the crystal formation of both colours to see if growth differs in some way? Both of these methods can be measured and quantified to possibly create a defining method to separate pink from purpl. I wouldn't be surprised if two trace elements are present in all the samples in varying ratios that correspond to the colour range too. Colorimeter testing can help you define quantitatively the colour values if you want to label them with whatever charts you like.

Also are you certain they are all creedite? Could they be confused with something else? What about the matrix they have grown on? Any differences there that may have accounted for a slightly different crystalline structure to start the crystal growth? Also did the cleaners do anything to “enhance” The colours as part of their “clean”? Do you have uncleaned samples that show the same colours of pink and purple? As those would be better for analysis, the dirts and clays attached to the crystals may show elements present or lacking to account for variations in the crystals. Its all data which is whats required for you to definitely try to account for the colours. Many mines, eg sapphire, will heat treat everything found to enhance colour, did you pull these pieces out of the ground yourself and do you know with certainty those colours are as they came out of the ground? Just you have already been given an explanation for the colours but seek more which is really analysis and that is made difficult if you are not 100% certain what processes the samples have been through that could effect analysis. I think ultimately it’ll be down to trace elements in the chemical make up of the crystals in varying amounts that give the colour varieties.
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Julie Wilson




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PostPosted: Mar 09, 2021 12:46    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

Thanks for the responses.

To respond to Pete Richard’s post. I can see how the question of matrix color influencing the appearance of the creedite came up.
The simple answer is, looking at the complete parcel, the matrix color does not cause purple vs pink. There are pieces of purple and pink on fluorite, white and black matrix as well as not directly on matrix.

Responding to SteveB:
The idea of elemental analysis and the ratios of elements making pink and purple varying to create all the colors between is what first occurred to me. The information about the color zones threw me at first. But, even if that is true, I would theorize that elemental analysis would point us towards what in the color zones causes the varying shades and colors.
Ironically, this is not the only mineral pocket that we are likely to be looking for someone who can do this analysis. Can anyone point me towards a person or facility where we can have this done? I have a memory of someone telling me Covid has texting of external samples shut down at most universities but I could be wrong.

In terms of crystal growth, I have been looking at pieces and so far do not see any difference in shape correlating to color.

I like the idea of colorimeter testing. We will have to look into purchasing one and the accuracy of some of the lower cost options.

As far as identification as creedite. I am quite certain they are creedite, we are confident in our source but have also checked crystal shape and hardness as a double check. Plus, We do have pieces that have pink and purple as well as the expected colors of orange, black, clear and even some white. My research had me looking at purple creedite from other locations. It sees that with purple creedite acircular formation is significantly less common than with more common colors, I could be wrong and if so, I am open to correction. I do know that to be the case with the Navidad find. Even so, we do have some pieces that show that traditional shape. I will attack a picture that shows one of the examples of pink/purple and orange balls.

We do have uncleaned examples showing the same depth of color. We have been gently cleaning the dirt off them ourselves but I will be sure to set aside some pieces and not remove the dirt and clay for possible testing. The last two pictures are pieces from my original post have only had the dirt removed by us using nothing harsher than vinegar or a household degrease cleaner and brushes. There are examples of even stronger pink that I will work on getting pictures of.

We did not pull them from the ground ourselves but, we have great trust in the person who imported them from Mexico. I will have to ask him about this material but, he often goes to the locations to help mine and see what they are finding himself.

As for the host matrix, it is most often fluorite. There is a large portion that has an as yet unidenfitied black coating over fluorite. There is another group that are quartz over fluorite. In fact, we also acquired a parcel of material that is quartz over fluorite wirh no creedite that came out of the same area. There are a number of pieces that are either floaters or show a contact point but are not on matrix. There are a very few examples are on another matrix but they are the exception and show no immediately noticeable difference in crystallization.

Thanks again for the input.
I have other pieces that we have questions about and will be sharing them over the next few weeks. I much appreciate the acceptance and understanding.



828E69C9-8CA1-435C-B5DD-7C8F475F98CA.jpeg
 Mineral: Creedite
 Locality:
Navidad Mine, Abasolo, Rodeo, Municipio de Rodeo, Durango, Mexico
 Dimensions: 4.6cm x 3.5cm x 2.3cm
 Description:
Orange & Purple/Pink Creedite, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad), Abasolo, Rodeo, Rodeo Minicipality, Durango, Mexico

Photo copyright: Ragan
 Viewed:  1070 Time(s)

828E69C9-8CA1-435C-B5DD-7C8F475F98CA.jpeg


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lluis




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PostPosted: Mar 09, 2021 13:54    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

Hi, Julie

I am thinking it is just a difference due to manganese acting as colour giver,,,
Mn2+-Mn3+ could act as colour centers... Differences in concentration between them and in all could cause this...
As it happens in rhodocrosite... Could go from very pale pink (color given by Mn2+), to deep red (helped by Mn3+...)

Maybe analysis with flame spectroscopy for Mn and anything to sort out if Mn2+-Mn3+ is there, could help.

With best wishes

Lluís
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Julie Wilson




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PostPosted: Mar 09, 2021 21:47    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

Thanks Lluís,
It makes sense that something like that would be the cause.
It is a question of finding someone who can help us with the testing.
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PostPosted: Mar 10, 2021 04:21    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

I think anyone in the analysis department of Chemistry in any University near where you live...

At least, that is what I would do...

With best wishes

Lluís
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lluis




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PostPosted: Mar 10, 2021 10:58    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

And to add a little more, Mn2+ and Mn3+ could be assessed by spectroscopy...

Not to be done at home, but easy to do in a lab with such devices, as likely a University would have....

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Mar 10, 2021 19:01    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

Given that Creedite is highly light sensitive and will lose color relatively rapidly in sunlight, I doubt that Mn is the chromophore and suspect that a more elusive color source is operating here.


20210119_115602.jpg
 Mineral: Creedite on fluorite
 Locality:
Navidad Mine, Abasolo, Rodeo, Municipio de Rodeo, Durango, Mexico
 Dimensions: 10 x 9 x 6 cm
 Description:
Nice contrasting pink on green piece I picked up recently
 Viewed:  852 Time(s)

20210119_115602.jpg



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PostPosted: Mar 10, 2021 20:48    Post subject: Re: Creedite - Is Pink Different than Purple, Navidad Mine (Mina Navidad)  

I agree with Peter. Manganese is unlikely here; more likely to be radiation "damage". Colors due to radioactivity usually fade with light, heat, or both.
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