FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jason]

I have been having discussions about the term "imperial" Now I have always been told by my contacts for imperial and from other leaders in the gem/mineral world tha the term "imperial" should only be used for topaz with either red, pink, or purple/lavender in them. Not the golds, oranges, or yellows. Those color topaz are found on every continent so the term imperial would really not set them apart from any other topaz the world over regradless of wether they are found in Ouro preto or not. Now the term was originally used in Russia for red and pink topaz favored by the Czars..hence the term "imperial". Suddenly topaz was found in Brazil with the same type colors but somehow it migrated over to the oranges, and yellows/golds too. Those to me should be called precious topaz..now mind you these are trade names and technically not really appropriate to a purist but for arguements sake.. Mindat shows golds and yellows under the term "imperial"..i just can't help to think back to the original use by the pinks and reds in Russia and the term "imperial" being used for those since loved by the imperial family..should that not still be the case..shouldn't only the pinks and reds(purples/lavender) only be called imperial and not the yellows and oranges found on every continent? Just wondering what the thoughts were on it..been trying to sort it out myself.

[Paul S]

I recently read an article about jade in an art-magazine (I have it in front of me now) and they state that the term 'imperial jade' comes from the type of jade only worn by the Chinese imperial family. This jade was found in Myanmar and was chosen by the Chinese royal family for its color. They liked the white and apple-green jade best so they decided that they were the only ones to wear this kind of jade as jewellery and on/in clothing. This all happend at the end of the 18th century, after the Chinese had won a war with Myanmar and got their own source of jade. They went to war because the people from Myanmar didn't want to tell the origin of the jade they had been trading with the chinese until then.

I hope this information was helpfull.

[Pete Modreski]

I'll be interested to see what responses we have to your Imperial Topaz question, which is a good one.

There is always a tendancy for sellers to try to promote the value of their material by extending names which were intended to apply to one quality or color of material, to lesser grades; especially when it is sellers who are aiming at relatively uniformed customers in the mass market and not the more knowledgable buyers within the gem trade.

[GneissWare]

According to Wikipedia: "Imperial topaz is yellow, pink (rare, if natural) or pink-orange." This is consistent with Bill Larsen's description at:
https://www.collectorfinejewelry.com/buyers_guide_topaz.htm
(link normalized by FMF)
which states in part:
"The name “imperial topaz” is said to have originated in the 19th century in Russia, where the Ural Mountain mines were an important source. According to some sources, pink topaz from those mines was restricted to the family of the Czar. Today, the gem trade generally uses the term for pink, orange and red topaz, which comes mainly from Ouro Prêto, Brazil. Fine pink topaz also comes from the Katlang area of Pakistan."

[Jason]

yes yes good point but orange topaz comes from australia, from other locations in brazil..africa..are all those imperial topaz? some of those irridated pakistan ones come out an orange color..does that now make them imperial? When did the term imperial get moved from reds and pinks in russia to include oranges and/or yellows and golds? What is a "precious" topaz then?

[Paul S]

Well it's clear from my post that it was long past bed-time, for I completely mixed up imperial jade with imperial topaz. I hope I didn't confuse anyone ;-)

On the subject of imperial topaz, I think it would be logical to call it imperial when the colour and the locality are the same as those used by the Czars. Maybe one could say that if the Czars could have worn it, it can be called imperial. So if the Czars only wore topazes from the Ural, then only the red/orange/pink ones from that locality can be called imperial. (I don't know whether they imported topaz from outside of Russia?)

But isn't it also possible that over time the term imperial will be given to the most valuable topaz on the market of today? Regardless of the history behind the word imperial?

[Peter]

The goldwashings along the Kamenka, Sanarka rivers and surrounding areas in the Urals yielded very limited amounts of these imperial topaz crystals, most of them very small .

The most well known are the deep pink ones but also golden ones. I know of a now facetted incredible 58 carat flawless golden stone cut from a 1850 found broken crystal from the Sanarka river.

I did not study all the imperial jewels of Russia but they may contain, or have contained gems of a range of colors.
Now from geneses, morphology these are similar to the Ouro Preto ones and for the last dekades also the most commonly golden ones from Ouro Preto region have been called imperial.

[alfredo]

I don't think we can really narrow down the definitions of "imperial" this-or-that to any certain color tint or locality, because these terms are basically just marketing hype, not mineralogical terms, and the marketing folk will apply them rather loosely to whatever they are trying to sell.

[Jason]

I posed this question other places and to other people..one of my peers, Rick martin, got this reply and posted it

"I was first introduced to the term "Imperial Topaz" by Dr. Joel E. Arem FGA who spoke at a diamond conference I attended long ago. Dr. Arem is a former staff mineralogist for the Smithsonian Institution and author of several important gem books, including the well known "Color Encyclopedia of Gemstones."

When this topic came up I wrote him to ask his views on the term because of his long involvement with marketing this material. Here's his reply:

"Hi Rick-
I have seldom seen as much misinformation and total confusion in the gem trade as the mess that surrounds the name "Imperial topaz'.

"The actual origin of the name is fairly obscure, but prevailing wisdom suggests that the only logical derivation is the jewelry worn by the Russian royals. There is IN FACT a deposit in Russia of pink topaz, and reports of some fairly large stones. My company once had an antique piece with a 79 carat pink topaz oval (had a very small inclusion) that was reportedly from the Urals, but the provenance can never be proven with certainty.

"The Brazilian mine called Vermelhao ("vermilion") at Ouro Preto has orange topaz with a trace of chromium that turns it red. This material, when heated, may turn pink. The name 'Imperial' should ONLY be used with reference to red, pink, or reddish-orange precious topaz. If you have an orange stone and there is NO VISIBLE red color under incandescent illumination, as far as I am concerned you cannot call it Imperial. The yellow-orange material is called precious topaz.

"That's where I stand on this issue, until someone shows me evidence that my facts are not correct.

Cheers-
Joel Arem"

[Luiz Menezes]

Imperial topaz was found for the first time in Brazil in 1751, in the area of Ouro Preto (at that time it was still called "Villa Rica", that means "Rich Village", due to the gold deposits that were been exploited there), and was initially called "Brazilian ruby", until it was finally classified as topaz; but it was only in 1763 that this find was made public by the Portuguese kingdom.

There are 2 versions for the adoption of the name "imperial topaz": one is that the first Brazilian emperor, Pedro I, on the early 1830's travelled to the Ouro Preto area to deal with a rebellion against his ruling and was granted with some of these topaz; one of his close assistants, Jose Boniácio de Andrada e Silva, was a world-class mineralogist (andradite was named after him); the second version is that the name was suggested by Henrique Gorceix, a French mining geologist that was invited by the second Brazilian emperor, Pedro II, to found the first mining school in Brazil, at Ouro Preto, on the late 1870's; in 1881 Pedro II visited Ouro Preto and then Gorceix granted him a superb crystal of imperial topaz, and they decided to call it "imperial" to emphasize the difference between these genuine topaz from many other yellow gemstones (like citrine) that at that time were being also called "topaz".

At that time there was no Internet and no I.M.A., so it appears to me that both finds (at Ouro Preto and at Russia) occured at about the same time and both topaz were called "imperial" independentely, so I disagree with the assertion that the original "imperial topaz" are only those from Russia.

The several mines at Ouro Preto have produced very large amounts of imperial topaz for more than one century; even now very few pieces have been found in Pakistan and in Russia and the only other locality that has produced a little more (but even though much, much less than Ouro Preto) is located on the border between Zambia and Congo. So imperial topaz is typically a Brazilian stone.

I disagree that yellow and orange topaz from Ouro Preto cannot be called "imperial"; the name has been accepted by the mineral community for over one century for all shades of color (yellow, orange, reddish-orange, pink and purple); if the name is decided to be applied only for the reddish-orange topaz I think that the same criteria should be used on many other cases: pink rubelite should be down-graded to pink tourmaline, and "rubelite" should be used only for ruby-red tourmalines; greenish-blue indicolites should be down-graded to "greenish-blue tourmalines", and "indicolite" should only be used for indigo-blue tourmalines, and so on.

That is my opinion.

Regards

Luiz

[Jason]

LOL..great info Luiz..thanks for the write-up..you see on one hand i have Luiz who I highly respect and who I learn so much from with great info regarding it...on the other hand i have my other peers who say something totally different..for example Dr. Arem above who was a mineralogist for th smithsonian saying only red, pinks, and reddish-orange, etc...and another well respected in the gem community friend of mine of mine saying only purples, reds, and pinks...lol...maybe i need to call LHMC and have them set it straight..another quick question Luiz..so if an orabge topaz can get the name imperial wouldn't that mean the orange topaz from mali, australia, and other non-ouro preto locations in brazil then be able to be called imperial? What about those new irridated pakistan ones..i have seen some pretty otange ones from there..all have a brown secondary but still lots of orange? Thanks again for your thought everyone!!

[alfredo]

...all of which, speaking as a geologist, just goes to show the hopelessly vague imprecision and changing usage of varietal gem names. Luiz makes a good point that the current usage of "rubellite" and "indicolite" no longer fit the original definition. The meaning of "imperial" can be expected to suffer from similar drift over the centuries. The marketing folk will hate me, but how about we introduce clarity to the issue by dropping poorly-defined adjectives like "imperial" from our vocabulary and use unambiguous terms like "reddish orange topaz", "orange-yelow topaz", etc.?

[Luiz Menezes]

Alfredo:

I disagree with your suggestion; imperial topaz is a term widely accepted by the mineral market, as well as many others: rubelte, indicolite, kunzite, heliodor, etc; if we do what you are proposing we will make our life more miserable: instead of writing a label as rubelite we should be forced to use "pink elbaite" for many specimens, instead of "indicolite", "greenish-blue elbaite"; "heliodor" should be used only for golden-yellow beryl, so on many display cases at the Tucson show many specimens should be re-labelled "greenish-yellow beryl", for the heliodors that don't show the exact golden-yellow color of the official definition. Do you think it would be really worth to do it?; why we don't just leave things the way they are, on the case of these very traditional and very widely accepted names?

Regards

Luiz

[alfredo]

Luiz, I'm not suggesting we write "greenish blue beryl" or "golden yellow topaz" on labels. Just "beryl" and "topaz" should be quite sufficient - The viewer can see for themselves what the colour is!

[Luiz Menezes]

Hello Amethystguy:

I apologze, I went straight to Alfredo's comments before reading yours. I would also call "imperial" the topaz crystals I have seen from the border of Zambia/Congo, not only for the color but also for the habit: long striated prismatic crystals with a simple pyramidal termination; therefore, I would not call "imperial" some yellow topaz crystals found in granitic pegmatites in Minas Gerais and Espirito Snto state that also produce aquamarine and heliodor; these topaz from pegmatitic origin are more equidimensional and never show striations on the prism faces; I would also not call "imperial" the topaz crystals from Thomas Range, Utah, neither the orange to peach-colored topaz found together with aquamarine, schorl, kunzite, garnet and pink apatite in granitic pegmatites elsewhere in Pakistan and Afganistan.

The imperial topaz from Ouro Preto are found in metamorphic carbonate rocks, as well as the reddish-pink ones (also prismatic striated, with simple pyramidal temination) from the Ghundao mountains, Pakistan; I don't know about the old ones from Russia and the new ones from Zambia/Congo, but I suppose that there might be a possibility that these prismatic striated topaz come only from metamorphic rocks, whilst the ones from pegmatites or rhyolites have flat prism faces, without striations; this guess is also supported by the Brumado locality, constituted of metamorphic magnesian carbonates where tiny prismtic striated topaz crystals are found, showing a very similar habit as the ones from Ouro Preto and Pakistan; the termination in Brumado is also a simple short pyramid.

I respect the opinion of Pete Modresky and Joel Arem, based on scientific consideration they are correct; but from the mineral dealer/ mineral collector point of view I think we should keep using the traditional and widely used names, on the way that everybody understand.

Regards

Luiz