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Les Presmyk
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 372
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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Posted: Aug 07, 2008 11:15 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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Ah, yes, simple laziness, inexcusable but it happens. Or, what about the dealer who puts more information than is really known about the locality? I know of a collection just you have described. Everything is meticulously labeled but only within the ability of that person to properly spell. There are four Mexican stibnites in the collection, all from the same locality, but looking at the labels you would never know it because of the mispellings and the inability of the collectors to realize all of the pieces are from the same locality.
The best we can do is enjoy the specimens we acquire and make sure all of the information is as correct as we can make it. Some collectors just do not realize that without accurage locality information their collections are not worth as much when they go to sell it. That should be incentive enough. I purchased a large collection years ago that had been properly catalogued but the widow or the daughter has thrown the catalog away. Fortunately, there were also a number of labels and all of the minerals were obvious. It was all of the agate slabs that I missed having the catalog for. |
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keldjarn
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 157
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Posted: Aug 07, 2008 11:35 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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I agree with James that in most cases misrepresented localities or incorrect labelling is not a result of systematic fraud but rather due to lack of concern or proper knowledge.
I may have visited and studied the display collections of more than 70 major museums worldwide during my more than 40 years of interest in minerals. I cannot remember one single museum that did not have (based on my detailed knowledge of especially Scandinavian localities) incorrect labels in their displays. That also includes famous museums like the Smithsonian or BMNH. If this is the case with the best minerals on display one can only guess about the situation concerning the specimens of lesser quality from more obscure localities in the back room drawers. I am sure the situation in private collections (including my own systematic collection of world wide minerals) may be similar or worse due to the fact that it is impossible to have the knowledge and resources to control and correct the labels of all minerals obtained from very different sources. When such specimens are "re-circulated" either from private or museum collections, I do understand it is also impossible for dealers to control and correct such data. As long as they keep all labels with the specimens and do not change locality information on purpose in a fraudulent way, we have to live with a certain "range of uncertainty" concerning the correctness of specimen labels.
When collecting specific localities in a systematic way it is important to really acquire indepth knowledge of all the minerals found there and the paragenetic sequence and condition of formation for these minerals. One must also resist the temptation of wanting to believe an incorrect label that would turn a specific specimen into "one-of-the-best" from that specific locality. I recently experienced this concerning the locality Broken Hill in Australia which is one of many topics for my locality sub-collections. An internet-dealer offered an exceptional crystal of arsenopyrite said to come from Broken Hill and confirmed the identity with no doubts when I asked him before purchasing the specimen. After receving the specimen I would very much have liked to believe the correctness of the locality, but it was somehow "too good to be true". When a close inspection revealed micro-crystlas of other minerals with the arsenopyrite - including fluorite with minute inclusions of a boulangerite-like mineral and very small clear topaz-crystals, I had to conclude that the specimen most probably has originated at the YaoGangXian mine in China ! It is still a nice Arsenopyrite and based on these findings I have changed the labels (keeping also the original and documenting the reason for the change and keeping a ? for the true locality). I was less happy that the internet dealer refused to accept these conclusions - even after I forwarded him pictures of the associated minerals which do not fit with the paragenesis at Broken Hill.
But this experience does not really upset me because as stated by Les - you have to take into account human nature - and the investigation gave me the oportunity to learn more about the differences between Broken Hill and localities with related mineralogy. And to me the pleasure of acquiring knowledge is just as great as the joy of collecting minerals.
Knut |
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Les Presmyk
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 372
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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Posted: Aug 07, 2008 12:18 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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A good friend of mine once told me that the test of character of a person is not the mistake that is made but how the person remedies the mistake. In this case a collector did his due diligence and determined the specimen was not from where it was reported to be. A reputable dealer would have returned the collector's money. So, now this dealer has a reputation for providing faulty locality information and not having the character to stand behind his sale. The second attribute is probably as troubling or more so than the faulty label.
I, too, find occasional errors in Arizona specimens in dealers' inventories and publc and private collections. Where I am certain, I inform the person of the correction that is needed. The correction is accepted but not always used but at that point, I have done my job. I expect the same thing from others who are more knowledgeable in their respective areas of expertise. However, you cannot really fault a collector or dealer for seeing how a specimen is labeled at the Smithsonian, the British Museum or the Sorbonne and using that information for their own labels, which may not be correct. |
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James Catmur
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 1349
Location: Cambridge
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Posted: Aug 08, 2008 05:48 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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Les, I fully agree that they should accept such mistakes. But many do not seem keen to do so which is strange. One dealer did at least accept that I know the localities involved far better than they do, but did not seem keen to take the time to get it right.
So yes there is fraud, but in my experience it is far more often the commercial pressures they are under which mean that they do take the time. |
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MaryFender
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Nov 23, 2008 12:10 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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I buy lots of old collections. Depending on the accuracy of the labels provided I make a determination as to the overall integrity of the original collector. I leave the old information stand if an overwhelming number of the labels are correct and the condition of the catalog and collection indicate a methodical collector. I truly believe that one of the important things from buying old collections is the historical insight. Perhaps instead of chastising the dealer for being fraudulent or lazy one should recognize that one does not know everything. That there may be information lost in the historical record. Instead of assuming you know the correct information you should consider that your knowledge is incomplete and that this long deceased collector is providing you with a window into the past. |
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John S. White
Site Admin
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted: Nov 24, 2008 05:20 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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I take your point, Mary, but in this case several of the writers are referring to a specific individual who was famous for intentionally misrepresenting label information. All of these writers are fearful of litigation, so that is why the name of this dealer is not mentioned. Most of us know of hundreds of labels, perhaps there are even thousands, that this person has grossly misrepresented and there is no question that this has been deliberate. An entire display case at a major mineral show some years ago was filled with such specimens. Each carried this person's label and also a label with the proper locality. There was no ambiguity about the fact that the dealer's label was obviously wrong and the exhibitor's label correct, because the misrepresentation was so blatant. _________________ John S. White
aka Rondinaire |
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MaryFender
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Nov 24, 2008 08:26 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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Hello John: I think I was a little harsh in my response. I know some dealers lie about localities and I agree it is fraudulent. My remarks are from my experience - get this- as an honest dealer. I also am a retired geoscientist. I get pretty irritated with people coming to me and demanding a label change who do not understand process. I will listen carefully to a reasoned argument and actually write notes on the back of a label if a true authority indicates an issue. However just because someone buys minerals does not make him a reasoned authority.
I recall my days field collecting fossils for study that I was able to find species in well documented areas that had never been found there before. Incredulous professors had to follow me out into the field to "see it with their own eyes". A seasoned field collector's collection can harbor undocumented occurrences. |
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chris
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 538
Location: Grenoble
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Posted: Nov 24, 2008 12:15 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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Hi Mary,
I just read your comments. Could you be more specific when you say : " a label change who do not understand process". I'm not a native English speaker - and maybe it is the reason why - but I don't understand what you mean by "process".
Moreover, I do not completely agree with you about "reasoned authority". Last year I was in Golden and decided to visit the museum of the School of Mines. While doing so I spotted a specimen from an old mine located near where I live. The label wasn't completely accurate. The fact of not being an authority didn't prevent the curator to note and modify the label according to what I told him. So if I see your point and if you had been that curator you wouldn't have modified that label - because I'm not an authority - and you would have been just wrong...
And I don't even talk about the mess in some museums. I can talk about that because a cousin of mine helped a famous American museum to fix its French mineral collection containing labels with hilarious locations ;-). Of course you are right of expecting reasoned arguments, but don't forget that collectors as I am, also can be a good source of information.
Christophe |
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Pete Modreski
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 709
Location: Denver, Colorado
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Posted: Nov 24, 2008 15:49 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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I think that most museum curators, and most collectors and dealers too, are quite willing to accept and believe corrected information about the labelling of their specimens, when it comes from any source that seems reasonably knowledgeable--such as, as you say, a visiting collector from France to Golden CO who basically seems to know what he is talking about.
Nowadays of course, it is usually easy to look up and check or verify locality information online--once the exhibit curator realizes there is a problem.
One problem often is that musuem labels need to be fabricated through the museum's exhibits department, and there is often a very long and cumbersome chain of "red tape", and resultant time lag (which can be measured in years), between getting information to a curator, and having a revised label actually appear in the museum exhibit.
Pete |
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MaryFender
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 26
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Posted: Nov 24, 2008 16:34 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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Hi Chris: Scientific process calls for accurate, reliable observation. Therefore a curator or dealer can rely on peer reviewed articles, field collector experience, miners or academic field work, as examples.
When asked to change a label I must determine who is the most reliable source. I go with the person who has the greatest scientific authority or most reliable field experience. I also will check their knowledge against publications.
In practice, if you come to me at a show and ask me to change a label, I will discuss it with you, take some notes and study the issue when I am home.
It sounds like you added completeness to the label at Golden, which I wholeheartedly agree with. If a visitor or customer can add deeper knowledge he should be listened to.
I am complaining about people (with little academic or field experience) who want me to completely change the location.
I still stand by maintaining the old label for two reasons:
1) It might be right
2)as an historical document |
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James Catmur
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 1349
Location: Cambridge
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Posted: Nov 25, 2008 08:10 Post subject: Re: Misrepresented localities |
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I agree with keeping old labels as they are part of the history of a specimen. But clearly I would correct spelling mistakes, name changes, etc. on my labels. I would also add missing information (so on a recent label for a Brookite from 'Snodon' I added the correct locality). When I come across a label that is wrong (in my humble opinion) I would work with others to see what I can find out and see if a change is justified. That said I am willing to take the time, while others just do not seem to mind. |
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