We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >


FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences


Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
11 May-01:43:24 Re: the mizunaka collection (Dany Mabillard)
10 May-16:55:47 Uvarovite from outokumpu, finland / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
09 May-13:23:43 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
08 May-17:32:48 Re: quartz twins (Bob Morgan)
07 May-23:40:44 Re: quartz twins (Herwig)
07 May-17:07:55 The mizunaka collection - smoky quartz (Am Mizunaka)
07 May-15:10:39 Re: quartz twins (Roger Warin)
07 May-14:13:54 Re: collection of michael shaw (James Catmur)
07 May-10:22:14 Re: collection of michael shaw - quartz ps. After barite (Michael Shaw)
07 May-09:39:53 Re: quartz twins (Bob Carnein)
07 May-08:22:46 Re: quartz twins (Pete Richards)
06 May-23:47:28 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
06 May-15:58:27 Tricolour tourmaline from madagascar / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
06 May-15:25:14 Re: carlos pareja photo collection (Carlos Pareja)
06 May-15:20:01 Re: carlos pareja photo collection (Carlos Pareja)
06 May-09:58:11 Re: the mim museum in beirut, lebanon (Mim Museum)
06 May-07:05:10 Re: martin danovski minerals collection (Danovskim)
05 May-22:27:21 Re: quartz twins (Bob Morgan)
05 May-16:13:09 The mizunaka collection - rhodochrosite (Am Mizunaka)
05 May-13:07:52 Elbaite (variety paraíba) from brazil / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
05 May-12:41:15 Quartz twins (Bob Carnein)
05 May-08:26:19 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
04 May-16:39:42 Brochantite from milpillas mine, mexico / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
03 May-23:23:09 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
03 May-17:21:53 Re: martin danovski minerals collection (Jordi Fabre)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
121245


The time now is May 11, 2025 02:17

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
The information provided within this Forum about localities is only given to allow reference to them. Any visit to any of the localities requires you to obtain full permission and relevant information prior to your visit. FMF is strictly against any illicit activities related to collecting minerals.
Epitaxial rutile
  Goto page 1, 2  Next
  Index -> Minerals and Mineralogy
Like
19


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Josele




Joined: 10 Apr 2012
Posts: 410
Location: Tarifa, Spain


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 05:14    Post subject: Epitaxial rutile  

Is generally accepted that rutile forming 60º angle orientation between crystals is due to epitaxial growth on hematite. But very often hematite is not visible in the specimen, as in this case.

An infinitesimal (not visible) quantity of hematite is enough to start epitaxy?

Can rutile grow like this without hematite at all?

Thanks for your comment.



sagenite1.JPG
 Description:
Rutile and siderite on quartz
Alchuri, Shigar Valley, Skardu District, Pakistan
15 x 10 x 8 cm
 Viewed:  44658 Time(s)

sagenite1.JPG



sagenite2.JPG
 Description:
Rutile and siderite on quartz
Alchuri, Shigar Valley, Skardu District, Pakistan
FOV: 7 cm
 Viewed:  44754 Time(s)

sagenite2.JPG



sagenite3.JPG
 Description:
Rutile on quartz
Alchuri, Shigar Valley, Skardu District, Pakistan
FOV: 3 cm
 Viewed:  44691 Time(s)

sagenite3.JPG



_________________
Josele
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1298
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 06:17    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

Very nice close-up in the third photo. This is not epitaxy. What you have is twinned rutile in a very common form, often referred to as reticulated or geniculated, and rutile of this habit is known as sagenite. Twinned rutile like this is typical on quartz but can also be found on other substrates, such as siderite. Here are two examples from my collection of such twinned rutile in quartz from Lavro do Cascalho, near Conselheiro Pena, Minas Gerais, Brazil. The smaller one is 4 cm across and the larger elongated one is nearly 11 cm. In the larger piece some of the rutile is entirely enclosed in quartz while much of it is not.

My guess is that this rutile is black because of a relatively high iron content, while your sample probably contains very little iron.



rutilated quartz - Brazil 14-9-25.JPG
 Description:
 Viewed:  44656 Time(s)

rutilated quartz - Brazil 14-9-25.JPG



rutilated quartz 14-2-15.JPG
 Description:
 Viewed:  44688 Time(s)

rutilated quartz 14-2-15.JPG



_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Josele




Joined: 10 Apr 2012
Posts: 410
Location: Tarifa, Spain


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 07:19    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

Thank you John, then I was confused about sagenite growth.
In accord with this, I suppose that angles between crystals and twin plane is 65º (as is in rutile sixlings), not 60º as in epitaxial rutile on hematite. Given that there is two twinning operation affecting the same crystal, can this be considered as a particular case of cyclic twinning?



sagenite5.JPG
 Description:
Rutile on and into quartz
Alchuri, Shigar Valley, Skardu District, Pakistan
FOV: 6 cm
 Viewed:  44584 Time(s)

sagenite5.JPG



_________________
Josele
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John S. White
Site Admin



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1298
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 08:39    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

In my earlier post I used the term geniculated incorrectly, for which I apologize. Geniculated twins are those that consist of just two components joined together like arm or leg bones at an angle.
_________________
John S. White
aka Rondinaire
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Martin Rich




Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 127
Location: Lower Austria


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 15:27    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

An other possibility is a pseudomorph of Rutile after preexistent Ilmenite. Only a thought of myself.
_________________
We are living on the matrix.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Richards
Site Admin



Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 843
Location: Northeast Ohio


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 16:07    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

John S. White wrote:
... This is not epitaxy. What you have is twinned rutile in a very common form, often referred to as reticulated ...

Somehow, John and I have a knack for coming down on opposite sides of a theory! Josele is right to raise the question of the angles between crystals, which should not be 60° if these are twins. Martin Rich offers a good idea - that the precursor could have been ilmenite rather than hematite, since the ilmenite could supply the titanium to make the rutile.

I have little crystals from Mont Saint-Hilaire which look exactly like ilmenite plates, except that they are decorated with tri-directional lines just like sagenite, and often have projecting spikes of rutile. SEM-EDS shows that they contain no iron - only titanium and oxygen. These are oriented replacements of ilmenite by rutile that started out as epitactic associations, I believe.

I have also seen thick sagenitic mats of rutile embedded in vein quartz, and they clearly have a platy shape with well-defined edges. The surrounding quartz proves that this was the original shape of the aggregate. We have the same problem here as we have with cyclic twinning - if it is twinning, how does the rutile know how to stay in one plane as it twins, and fill out the well-defined shape but grow no farther? There are four equivalent and equally likely directions of twinning for rutile which define two planes at right angles to each other. A multiply twinned rutile should at least be composed of two intersecting sheets of needle-shaped crystals, and more likely should be a three-dimensional bush, not a planar disc.

I'm not prepared to say that sagenites NEVER form by twinning, though I find it difficult to see how it could happen. And in some cases, I believe we can infer that they form by oriented replacement of ilmenite or some other mineral.



Rutile_Ilmenite 3a.jpg
 Description:
Rutile after ilmenite
Poudrette Quarry, Mont Saint-Hilaire, Quebec, Canada
crystals are about 1 mm across
 Viewed:  44499 Time(s)

Rutile_Ilmenite 3a.jpg



Rutile_Ilmenite 3b.jpg
 Description:
Rutile after ilmenite
Poudrette Quarry, Mont Saint-Hilaire, Quebec, Canada
crystals are about 1 mm across
Detail of first SEM image
 Viewed:  44482 Time(s)

Rutile_Ilmenite 3b.jpg



Rutile_ilmenite3g.JPG
 Description:
Rutile after ilmenite
Poudrette Quarry, Mont Saint-Hilaire, Quebec, Canada
crystals are about 1 mm across
 Viewed:  44506 Time(s)

Rutile_ilmenite3g.JPG



Rutile_Ilmenite 2.JPG
 Description:
Rutile after ilmenite?
Rowlandsville (now part of Philadelphia), Pennsylvania
Rutile disc is about 2" across
 Viewed:  44440 Time(s)

Rutile_Ilmenite 2.JPG



_________________
Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 5026
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 16:38    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

More info: Ilmenite pseudo
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Josele




Joined: 10 Apr 2012
Posts: 410
Location: Tarifa, Spain


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2013 18:49    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

Epitaxy, twinning, pseudomorphism... all together... Wow! this becomes more and more interesting!
From my naive ignorance I can think only about angles to determine if a sagenite is due to epitaxy or twinning. There is not much difference between 60 and 65º having in mind that nature tend to create divergences in theoretically parallel growth crystals.
Let me add some fuel to the fire with two simple observations:



sagenite12.jpg
 Description:
A is somewhat shorter than B and C, which are almost equal, conforming a more or less isosceles triangle little higher than the equilateral. To my understand, if is a twin, this triangle should be isosceles but slightly lower than equilateral. Pictures were taken perpendicular to sagenite plane. Measurements based on photos are not very reliable data but can be a clue.
 Viewed:  44403 Time(s)

sagenite12.jpg



P1060129.JPG
 Description:
This is supposed epitaxial rutile on hematite (or perhaps ilmenite pseudo after epitaxial rutile on hematite?) The triangle conformed by the three main directions is equilateral. Not absolutely reliable but...
 Viewed:  44402 Time(s)

P1060129.JPG



P1060093.JPG
 Description:
Entire sample of previous photo
Haramosh Mts., Skardu District, Pakistan
6 x 4,5 x 1,5 cm
 Viewed:  44406 Time(s)

P1060093.JPG



_________________
Josele
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 227
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 17, 2014 12:19    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

Just some pictures of the famous star rutile quartz. In these samples crystallization starts with hematite crystal (iron oxide) and when iron finished, then start to crystallize the rutile (titanium oxide). The rutile is red to yellow because most of the iron was used in the hematite crystal.


Quarzo con stella di rutilo, Brazil (Medium).JPG
 Description:
Star of rutile in quartz crystal
Novo Horizonte, Bahia, Brazil
A small hematite crystal lies at the center (6.5 cm)
 Viewed:  42062 Time(s)

Quarzo con stella di rutilo, Brazil (Medium).JPG



IMG_2265 (Medium).JPG
 Description:
Star of rutile in quartz crystal
Novo Horizonte, Bahia, Brazil
With hematite crystal at the center
 Viewed:  42141 Time(s)

IMG_2265 (Medium).JPG



IMG_2276 (Medium).JPG
 Description:
Star rutile in quartz
Novo Horizonte, Bahia, Brazil
25 mm, 30.3 cts
 Viewed:  42022 Time(s)

IMG_2276 (Medium).JPG


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 227
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 17, 2014 12:22    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

In this sample the rutile star grows along an elongated hematite.


IMG_2278 (Medium).JPG
 Description:
Star rutile in quartz
Novo Horizonte, Bahia, Brazil
14 mm, 18.2 cts
 Viewed:  41961 Time(s)

IMG_2278 (Medium).JPG



IMG_2279 (Medium).JPG
 Description:
top view of the same sample
 Viewed:  41994 Time(s)

IMG_2279 (Medium).JPG


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 227
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 17, 2014 12:26    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

This is sagenite. It is called green rutile. Just a little bit green, I don't know why. It is from an old deposit.


IMG_2286 (Medium).JPG
 Description:
Sagenite rutile in quartz
Brazil
24 mm, 23.3 cts
 Viewed:  42032 Time(s)

IMG_2286 (Medium).JPG


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

marco campos-venuti




Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 227
Location: Sevilla


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 17, 2014 12:28    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

An other sagenite, but a bit different. It is yellow and is composed of individual stars.


IMG_2271 (Medium).JPG
 Description:
Sagenite rutile in quartz
Brazil
25 mm, 28.6 cts
 Viewed:  42045 Time(s)

IMG_2271 (Medium).JPG


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
3
   

Mark Ost




Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Posts: 516
Location: Virginia Beach


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 17, 2014 20:00    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

Stunning examples Marco
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

stef4412




Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 11
Location: Embrun

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 15:54    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

Josele wrote:
Epitaxy, twinning, pseudomorphism... all together... Wow! this becomes more and more interesting!
From my naive ignorance I can think only about angles to determine if a sagenite is due to epitaxy or twinning. There is not much difference between 60 and 65º having in mind that nature tend to create divergences in theoretically parallel growth crystals.
Let me add some fuel to the fire with two simple observations:

In fact I think that crystals in your first photo are not twinned : some elements of the twin seems to be missing
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Josele




Joined: 10 Apr 2012
Posts: 410
Location: Tarifa, Spain


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 16:24    Post subject: Re: Epitaxial rutile  

More pics:


P1120609.jpg
 Mineral: Rutile
 Locality:
Alchuri, Shigar District, Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Areas), Pakistan
 Dimensions: FOV: 5 cm
 Description:
Rutile on quartz
 Viewed:  41139 Time(s)

P1120609.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> Minerals and Mineralogy   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 2
  Goto page 1, 2  Next  

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2025


Powered by FMF