| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
|
 Posted: Apr 10, 2018 04:26 Post subject: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
There has been an alarming increase in fake specimens from Erongo and Brandberg region over the last few years. I have spoken to a few dealers and diggers and it appears that a family is behind these operations. I now know who they are, but cannot mention them for obvious reasons. They do not sell them themselves, but have locals that do their dirty work for them, knowingly or unknowingly. They have been reported to the mining office but nothing has been done so far
I invite anyone who has anything more to add with regards to this topic with the intent to warn people to double check before purchasing specimens from these areas.
Please also see some other fake specimens lower down on this page https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=3621
| Mineral: | Quartz with borax? |
| Locality: | | Brandberg area, Erongo Region, Namibia |  |
|
| Dimensions: | 66 x 60 x 53 mm |
| Description: |
| FAKE 1 This fake was probably created by gluing amethyst quartz crystals to a basalt matrix and then growing something like borax crystals over them. |
|
| Viewed: |
38571 Time(s) |
|
| Mineral: | Quartz with borax? |
| Locality: | | Brandberg area, Erongo Region, Namibia | |
|
| Dimensions: | 46 x 42 x 42 mm |
| Description: |
|
| Viewed: |
38597 Time(s) |
|
| Mineral: | Quartz with borax? |
| Locality: | | Brandberg area, Erongo Region, Namibia | |
|
| Dimensions: | 46 x 42 x 42 mm |
| Description: |
|
| Viewed: |
38524 Time(s) |
|
| Mineral: | Quartz with borax? |
| Locality: | | Brandberg area, Erongo Region, Namibia | |
|
| Dimensions: | 73 x 53 x 48 mm |
| Description: |
|
| Viewed: |
38554 Time(s) |
|
| Mineral: | Quartz with borax? |
| Locality: | | Brandberg area, Erongo Region, Namibia | |
|
| Dimensions: | 73 x 53 x 48 mm |
| Description: |
|
| Viewed: |
38549 Time(s) |
|
_________________
Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Debbie Woolf
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 168
Location: Kent
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 05:07 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| I thank you for bringing this to our attention.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 05:38 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| Debbie Woolf wrote: | | I thank you for bringing this to our attention. |
Pleasure Debbie. You can read more on Face Book by joining the group Namibia Mineral Specimens...
_________________
Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris Rayburn
Joined: 07 Oct 2013
Posts: 66
Location: Arvada, Colorado
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 07:32 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| Appreciate this Pierre.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 07:37 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| Chris Rayburn wrote: | | Appreciate this Pierre. |
Thank you Chris. I saw some pictures of Kaokoland specimens that had the same 'borax' treatment; most probably the same authors.
_________________
Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lluis
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 719
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 12:34 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
Hi, Pierre, List
To my eyes, it is simply alum recrystallized over the amethyst, be it natural or glued to any pseudo-matrix....
It is easy to crystallize, it has been sold many times in eBay in an array of colors (over others matrix...)
Borax is not that easy to get in crystals....
With best wishes
Lluís
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 13:01 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| lluis wrote: | Hi, Pierre, List
To my eyes, it is simply alum recrystallized over the amethyst, be it natural or glued to any pseudo-matrix....
It is easy to crystallize, it has been sold many times in eBay in an array of colors (over others matrix...)
Borax is not that easy to get in crystals....
With best wishes
Lluís |
Hi dear friend lluis, I considered alum, but the crystal structure look more like borax. The crystals also have a very soapy feel. But, you may be right. Best regards:-)
_________________
Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lluis
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 719
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 14:03 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
My dear friend Pierre
Borax is not cubic, it is monoclinic and crystals look to be octahedrons (cubic). Apart that borax has the bad habitude to dehydrate, giving crystals a white look, due to conversion to tincalconite
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B3rax#/media/File:Borax_crystals.jpg
Soapy touch could be by alum.... just it is maybe covered by any oil, or just humidity is enough to get it "soapy"...
Anyway, when thinking in fakes, think that fakers are not idiots, use to be very clever and very skilled.... and use to be lazy: the easier, the preferred... My own experiences in coin collecting.... (the sad ones, I mean.... When you see coins sold at the mere 500.000 USD piece in a top auction and they are fakes.... well... No suspicions, besides. A criminal case in USA. Long time ago..(well not so long....Say 3-4 years ago))
With best wishes
Lluís
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 14:48 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| lluis wrote: | My dear friend Pierre
Borax is not cubic, it is monoclinic and crystals look to be octahedrons (cubic). Apart that borax has the bad habitude to dehydrate, giving crystals a white look, due to conversion to tincalconite
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B3rax#/media/File:Borax_crystals.jpg
Soapy touch could be by alum.... just it is maybe covered by any oil, or just humidity is enough to get it "soapy"...
Anyway, when thinking in fakes, think that fakers are not idiots, use to be very clever and very skilled.... and use to be lazy: the easier, the preferred... My own experiences in coin collecting.... (the sad ones, I mean.... When you see coins sold at the mere 500.000 USD piece in a top auction and they are fakes.... well... No suspicions, besides. A criminal case in USA. Long time ago..(well not so long....Say 3-4 years ago))
With best wishes
Lluís |
Thank you for the valuable input Lluís! I have always been fascinated by why some have a drive to deceive, causing harm instead of a drive to work and render an honest service to society.
_________________
Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
alfredo
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1012
|
| Posted: Apr 10, 2018 20:40 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| Are the sellers advertising these as "natural mineral specimens"? It only qualifies as a "fake" if they're claiming it's natural. If not, then it's just a "work of art", and making art is not a crime.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
|
| Posted: Apr 11, 2018 02:16 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| alfredo wrote: | | Are the sellers advertising these as "natural mineral specimens"? It only qualifies as a "fake" if they're claiming it's natural. If not, then it's just a "work of art", and making art is not a crime. |
Noble approach Alfredo. If this was the case, they should have provided a label; revealed their identity and do it openly. I assure you, there is no honesty involved.
_________________
Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Lemkin
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 403
Location: Prague
|
| Posted: Apr 11, 2018 02:41 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| Pierre Joubert wrote: | | alfredo wrote: | | Are the sellers advertising these as "natural mineral specimens"? It only qualifies as a "fake" if they're claiming it's natural. If not, then it's just a "work of art", and making art is not a crime. |
Noble approach Alfredo. If this was the case, they should have provided a label; revealed their identity and do it openly. I assure you, there is no honesty involved. |
While this may be true 'technically / legally', anyone buying a matrix specimen - or even a single or cluster of crystals ASSUMES that it is natural and not man-made or human-altered in any major way - certainly not glued together; and never naturally in that form or association. Repairs of a once natural specimen is slightly different matter - but even that should be mentioned and priced accordingly. Ditto a real specimen given a more 'prestigious' location - when the seller knows it comes from a less prestigious one.
I've been lucky and only once purchased a major specimen that turned out to be a complete fake. Since the advent of superglue anything is possible unless one carefully examines and researches. Caveat emptor!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
alfredo
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1012
|
| Posted: Apr 11, 2018 03:50 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
Yes, I suppose an "artist" ought to sign the piece ;))
Tell the seller, "Let's leave it in a bucket of water overnight and discuss the price tomorrow."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fiebre Verde
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
Posts: 944
Location: Paris Area
|
| Posted: Apr 11, 2018 04:44 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
Selling mineral art is certainly not a crime but how many mineral dealers sell openly art and natural specimens?
And if they do openly advertise and sell both types of ‘products’, I imagine most buyers would be very confused - well, I would!
One of my favorite sellers keeps showing me man-made specimens whenever I visit his shop in Bogota.
He knows I am always interested to have a look although I don’t buy. But before displaying them, he first locks the shop door because ‘nobody needs to see or to know’.
And when asked what he does with these man-made specimens, he mentions some distant foreign clients who cannot afford to buy natural specimens (Which can be actually very true!).
From the seller’s point of view, there should be a clear line of demarcation between art and natural.
Selling mineral art and natural specimens are different businesses targeting distinct customer groups and profiles.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Lemkin
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 403
Location: Prague
|
| Posted: Apr 11, 2018 11:38 Post subject: Re: Fake specimens from the Erongo and Brandberg region. |
|
|
| As long as this is turning into a bit of general topic on 'fakes' or 'man made' specimens, I'm always amazed when I go to mineral shows to see on the 'cheap tables' SO MANY human made crystals of copper sulfate, alum [often colored], bismuth and many others. While they are in a sense real crystals, the are NOT NATURAL crystals. Any advanced or intermediate person on minerals would know this immediately, but I have actually had to break the news [gently] to naive buyers that what they just bought was not natural, not found from nature - but made in a laboratory or kitchen or basement...... These are interesting for kids who want to learn about mineral forms, but everyone should be told what they are and where they 'come from'.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ 
Register
Log in
Forgotten your password?
