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A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more
  
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: Nov 18, 2019 20:11    Post subject: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

How many of us collectors have bought, sold, donated or otherwise either acquired or got rid of a specimen only to really really really regret what you did?

Maybe you now miss the example you sold or donated more than you thought you would. Or maybe you now think the money spent on the specific purchased example could have been better spent on another discovered similar example had you looked around just a bit more.

I know that I now have donor's remorse for the 5 hi end Indiana examples that, in 2015, I donated to the Indiana State Museum. They should have rather been given on loan, being donated outright upon my passing. Now the specimens are no longer mine to look at, use in displays, etc etc.
I really have donor's remorse! Anyone else with these sort of regrets? BOB
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wendellwilson




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PostPosted: Nov 18, 2019 20:19    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

I've always felt that there are three main sources of pain for the mineral collector: (1) The specimens you should have bought when you had the chance, but didn't; (2) The specimens you shouldn't have sold or given away, but you did; And (3) the specimens you broke..
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PostPosted: Nov 18, 2019 22:14    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

In the mid-90s I decided to concentrate on rare species, which are generally small, mostly micromounts. So I boxed up the older part of my mineral collection, 20 years worth of pretty cabinet-size common minerals like amethyst, fluorite, calcite, etc, and donated them to the Cochabamba natural history museum. Poor "third world" country at that time, and their mineral display was pathetic, mostly massive material, no crystals. My donated pieces, although nothing really valuable, were the best pieces they had. But two weeks later most of the best pieces had disappeared from the museum, and they started appearing in the windows of jewelry stores around town. "Donor‘s remorse" did indeed set in.

Your donations to mineral museums in more advanced countries may well be treated with more respect... until the mineralogist curator retires, and gets replaced by a paleontologist, who puts your minerals into storage and lets them gather dust, or worse. There are no guarantees.
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Pete Richards
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PostPosted: Nov 18, 2019 22:19    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

The other kind of remorse is that of the collecting community, when someone with an important collection dies without plans, no one in the family is interested (or maybe even they all resent the time the old geezer spent with his rocks), and the whole collection goes to the dump. Survivor's remorse?
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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 00:29    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

Once I had a HUGE Y-Tantalite twinned XX about 18cm x 18cm x 8 cm - probably one of the better to be had. I was in a financial emergency and sold it to a friend for a few thousand. I have tried many times to buy it back - but he refuses at any price. I lost a great specimen [one of the best in my collection] and a friend....... I can't tell how many times I have thought of that specimen and wish I had never sold it. Only fellow collectors could understand the actual pain and regret involved....

....more regularly, at shows there is/are the piece/pieces one hesitated to purchase and then one returns to that table to buy only to find it sold, or the show is over and the chance is missed...I leave most shows with such regrets. Luckily they only last a few days or until the next show. However the tantalite was about 15 years ago and I think about it at least once a month with regret...sometimes more often if reminded by something else of it. Recently someone sold me some tantalites [not nearly of that quality], which I appreciate - but they do remind me of the BIG one I 'gave away' for peanuts compared to what it was really worth to me.....
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Fiebre Verde




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 05:01    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

I know it's easier said than done, but the ability to forget is a necessary part of the collector's happiness.
Already forgot who said that :-)
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Susan Robinson




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 06:52    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

When donating minerals to a museum, there is usually a "deed of gift" form that is signed by both the curator or administrator in charge and the donor. This acknowledges the gift, but the museum can do as it wishes with the specimens, in most cases. Museums do not like to have donations have "strings attached", which I've witnessed while helping my husband, whose career was as a mineral museum curator. Having the specimens on loan is usually something that museums avoid - there is the risk in theft, damage, etc., and this is stated up front to make the collector aware that they hold no responsibility for what happens to the minerals on loan, in most cases. Universities also avoid having minerals on loan for the same reasons.

The last museum I volunteered at set up a plan to try to avoid future curators from making bad decisions on minerals in the collection. Every specimen over a certain value has been given a number on a small card in its collection box, with added info that it has been featured in articles or books, is of historic value, is a co-type, etc. Cards that have a "1" on them are never to leave the collection (those cards are a bright orange, so they can easily be spotted in the collection drawers). Those with a "2" can only be traded, etc., with the permission of the curator, director, and adjunct curator. Minerals with a "3" on them do not need "permission" to be exhanged. This plan at least gives some protection to the collection for the future.

I hope this information is helpful. I've seen too many minerals mishandled over the years in universities and museums, unless they have a competent, experienced curator, and an administration that doesn't think they are just "rocks". Make sure you do your "homework" before making a decision on where you plan to have your collection reside.


Susan Robinson

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Gail




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 07:48    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

The Perot museum, in Dallas in Texas, encourages loans. In fact, it prefers them. With a large mineral collecting community at its doorstep, it is a win/win.
There are plus factors such as excitement of new arrivals for both patrons and staff. A changing focus, ( we are featuring Chinese minerals soon ) and the museum is actively involved with the mineral community. ( Perot CEO, director and mineral registrar are members of our MAD group ). The museum hosts a meeting for us every year and also for the Dallas Symposium.
The collectors sign a loan contract for whatever specific time is agreed upon. ( 2 to 3 years is the usual ) when the minerals are returned they are given a lovely label stating they had been on loan there. The collector can visit their minerals in the mineral hall and tablets will state ownership. If needed back, the contract does have a 30 day clause.
We also have a donation policy, and have added the room to accept donations, but most are based on acceptable considerations. Our museum has expansion plans in the near future so there will be discussions of donations and best practices.
As a board member of our museum, a docent and an active loaner I find this to be a very rewarding way of helping the museum.
Jim and I, as collectors, loan to the Peabody museum, Rice northwest museum, Perot museum, and soon the Tokyo ( Japan ) and Tellus museum ( in Georgia ).
So we donate outside of our community. We are joined by many other collectors who are working with museums to offer minerals that they do not have to own. It is a trend that is working well as prices soar beyond a museum’s budget.
Do I miss some of our best pieces when on loan? Yes, I do. But they come back and, we’ll, it’s Christmas all over again. Cheers. ( forgive any grammatical errors, I’m only halfway through my coffee... )

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R Saunders




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 08:28    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

Yes to all of the above and I like what Susan wrote. I'm a long time collector of Toy Trains and art glass. some I have sold and later the price went way up. Remorse? Many times. As for museums, many get an overwhelming amount of donations, run extras out the back door so to speak because they cannot store or display it all. One has a policy that if a piece in better condition is donated they will sell the lesser for operating money. And I have known folks who loaned an item to never get it back.
I like the idea of numbered/color cards for items. And what Gail wrote about loans.
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Kevin Conroy




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 09:43    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

I second Gail's comments on loaning specimens to museums. I had two cases of some of my better Missouri minerals in the Colorado School of Mines Museum. The loan was only for a year, and during that time I knew that far more collectors got to see (and hopefully enjoy) the specimens than if they were at my house.
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John Betts




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 11:25    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

Loaning to museums is a well known strategy for high-end collectors to avoid paying capital gains taxes on the sales from their collections under Section 1031 of the Internal Revenue Code. This loophole has been targeted for elimination for many years.
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Roger Warin




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 11:37    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

Happy country!
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Gail




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 11:41    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

John Betts wrote:
Loaning to museums is a well known strategy for high-end collectors to avoid paying capital gains taxes on the sales from their collections under Section 1031 of the Internal Revenue Code. This loophole has been targeted for elimination for many years.


Really? We have never done that. And I don't know any high end collectors who do. You must run with a rough crowd.

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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 13:15    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

Gail wrote:
John Betts wrote:
Loaning to museums is a well known strategy for high-end collectors to avoid paying capital gains taxes on the sales from their collections under Section 1031 of the Internal Revenue Code. This loophole has been targeted for elimination for many years.


Really? We have never done that. And I don't know any high end collectors who do. You must run with a rough crowd.

John,
I'm not so familiar with the US laws as you are but what I heard is that you can save taxes if you donate your mineral(s) not if you loan it (them)
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Gail




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 13:18    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

Jordi Fabre wrote:
Gail wrote:
John Betts wrote:
Loaning to museums is a well known strategy for high-end collectors to avoid paying capital gains taxes on the sales from their collections under Section 1031 of the Internal Revenue Code. This loophole has been targeted for elimination for many years.


Really? We have never done that. And I don't know any high end collectors who do. You must run with a rough crowd.

John,
I'm not so familiar with the US laws as you are but what I heard is that you can save taxes if you donate your mineral(s) not if you loan it (them)


That's what confused me too Jordi. We get no tax break for loaning something we own. Gail

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John Betts




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 13:27    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

The good news is the Trump tax reform repealed the loophole.

Under the old law a collector that bought a $100,000 mineral who then sold it for $500,000 had to pay capital gains taxes on the $400,000 profit. Under the loophole an "investor" could buy another mineral subsequently for $500,000 and avoid the capital gains tax. In order to establish "investor" status:

"Tax advisors believe the IRS will view taxpayers more favorably as investors if they have regular collection appraisals done by professionals; take steps to increase the value of the collection by, for example, lending works to museums..."


To learn more Google "The Tax Strategy That Fuels the Art Market."

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Gary White




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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2019 14:04    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

This tax discussion seems to be tangential to the regrets/remorse discussion. For the clarity of the readers the 1031 exchange provisions only applied to gains from sales but John you are correct that this has now been eliminated for collectibles (personal property).
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cascaillou




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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2020 11:19    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

https://exceptionalminerals.com/DEN2007-202indiamix3.jpg

This thing was 18x10x10cm. I looked at the price and I told to myself "if you are prepared to be eating pastas without salt at every meal for the next six years, then it's possible".

My regret: I decided that no rock in the world was worth so much pastas. My consolation: it's in a museum now, for everyone to enjoy, and it's probably better that way...but sometimes, when it's dark, I can still hear it...my precious!
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Chris Wentzell




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PostPosted: Jan 07, 2020 18:54    Post subject: Re: Buyers remorse, sellers remorse, donors remorse and more  

When I was much younger, living in southern California, I donated alot of material to a local Nature/Cultural Center for them to display, this was in the early 1990's. I was very young then. Among my favorites donated were Tourmalines, Beryls, Kunzites we had dug at Pala, some opal pinecones from Nevada, etc. The administrator at the time, Ruth and her husband Sam, who founded the center and built it from the ground up, was a dear friend and promised me they would be kept on display or returned to me. I didn't need anything in writing as her word was golden to me. Later she and her husband retired and moved to Arizona, and they left the center in charge with the board of directors. I went to look at the museum in 2012, and nothing that I had donated was on display in the museum anymore. They had a few lesser pieces I had given them up for sale in the gift shop. But what happened to the 3 and 4 inch tourmalines (King/Fletcher Mines), 50 lb quartz matrixes (White Queen, Vanderberg, Katerina), etc.... Most of the pegmatite mines they were collected from lapsed and went back to reservation land and cannot be mined or even accessed anymore. I look at what they would be worth today with the high end dealers and (sigh). I had hoped they would be displayed forever but likely they got sold off to finance the center in one way or another. I doubt that I will ever 'donate" again while I am still living. That's just one of many stories over the years. One time I sold/traded a large part of my collection to a friend for an interest in a mine.
Boy did I get screwed over. I was 19 at the time. Now, at 46 I'm not that naive.
Honestly, I wish I could keep everything I ever buy or dig, but another good miner friend really put it in perspective years ago. He had what might be one of the best matrix specimens ever found at his mine, in 1993. I said, "don't sell it you need to keep it!" Blue told me, "But Chris, we have to keep on mining." I've been in this spot several times over the years since then and now understand what he was saying. With these regrets and experiences, the most important pieces I now acquire go into my trust with a provision they cannot be sold and immediately go the the safe deposit box at the bank, and someday either my beneficiaries or a museum will inherit it when I am gone, if I don't create my own museum before then. But from time to time I often think about those old pieces I donated or sold, and where they are. I miss them. Every mineral or gem I add to my collection becomes like a child to me. Another thing, I often regret not buying something as soon as I see it, then go back to find it's already gone. So lately if it's something I want, i just pull the trigger and buy it, and worry about how to pay for food later! After all, I can always get a box of macaroni or noodles but you can't always buy a blue cap! Just some of my thoughts....
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