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A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
Self collected
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John S. White
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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 04:42    Post subject: Self collected?  

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to invite a discussion of the phrase "self-collected." This is, of course, a totally inappropriate term since the minerals did not collect themselves. Some people get pretty excited about how ridiculous this phrase is. I am not one of them and I confess that I have used it and continue to use it today because it is so deeply implanted in the jargon of the hobby. I wonder if it appears in the jargon of other hobbyists who field collect, like butterfly collectors or botanists. What would be a better term for specimens actually collected in the field by the collector?
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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 05:11    Post subject: Re: Self collected?  

In Spain people use a very popular jargon word: "picado". It means something similar to the English word: "digged", but more colloquial. So, how about: "self-digged"?

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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 05:12    Post subject: Self collected?  

John, would you agree with 'myself-collected'? Or 'by-myself-collected'? Or 'BMC' for short? It's not easy to find a word that provides a good description and may be embraced by everybody at the same time :-(

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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 06:20    Post subject: self-collected  

Why not self-collected?
I believe the term clearly indicates the collector found and took the sample on (in) the mine, dump, mountain, etc.
If the term has (in english) more than a (this) significate really I ignore it.
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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 06:58    Post subject: Re: Self-collected  

In my humble opinion 'self-collected' means the piece has been collected by itself, which has no sense.

What about 'oneself-collected'? Or 'by-oneself-collected'? Shortly 'BOC' or 'BOSC'.

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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 07:16    Post subject: self-collected  

Always you reed, you interprete. Self-collected is always in a concret context. It is jus a simplificaton of piece recollected by the collector himself (quite long). To interprete the term as "piece is collected by itself"... No comment.
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PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 07:39    Post subject: Self-collected  

Carles, it's not me who 'misinterpreted'. It's John White who thinks the term is 'totally inappropriate' in the first place. Unfortunately my English language knowledge is limited. Let's wait for him to give his opinion again (if he likes to).

Carles M.
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 04:28    Post subject: Self collected  

Gee, we finally have a topic that has generated a lot of activity. To Jordi, let me say that the past tense of dig is dug, not digged. But to say "self-dug" is just as bad as "self-collected," the mineral did not dig itself. However, in the absence of a better term and since self-collected is so firmly planted in the jargon of the hobby, I believe that we have little choice but to live with it, unless someone comes up with a better phrase. Perhaps an abbreviation can be introduced, like CBTC, for "collected by the collector," which must assume "field" collected, not simply "acquired" by the collector using the "silver pick." Of course the abbreviation could be "FCBTC" for "field collected by the collector." All ambiguities are neatly taken care of with this choice.
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 05:23    Post subject: Re: Self collected  

OK John understood.

Assuming that we should live with self-collected, maybe the only way to create a new word(s) to replace the popular "self-collected" should be something funny and easy, because people like easy things and have fun. Some visitor of this forum have on mind some simple and funny word(s) in English jargon equivalent to the Spanish: "picado" or "picar"?
I read and heard some times the word "mined" for a similar concept, it could be an alternative?

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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 06:43    Post subject: Self collected  

How about "mined by collector"?
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MARION Claude




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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 06:49    Post subject: SELF-COLLECTED  

Jordi is right.
Why not "collector-mined" ?
Claude
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 07:07    Post subject: self-collected  

First of all, I give my excuses to everybody if sometimes my English sounds particularly rude to someone. I assure you it is not my intention, of course, and I think it is only an expression of my limitations with English language.
But concretely, comenting the last post of Jordi, not always a mineral is mined (extracted from a mine), they also exist some other sources (quarries, mountains, beaches, rivers, etc.) for minerals. Something similar happens in the case of the verb to dig, that express a very concret action, not always defining the act of collect minerals (It is a concret manner to work). In any case, perhaps english talkers could suggest the "perfect term", if it exists (or if it is really necessary).
The terms proposed by Jordi, usual, correct and perfectly understood in Spanish in all their degrees of gramatical correction and idiomatic level are, perhaps, not easily ot clearly adaptable to English, and I presume that something similar happens with other languages. Is in this sense that "self-collected" is very easy to be understood and adequately short for a note or inscription on labels or cards (into its logical context of course) I think, furthermore, it universalizes the idea of collect minerals personally, even thinking that it is no perfect (Where the perfection is?).
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 07:50    Post subject: Re: self-collected  

I love the Marion's proposal: "collector-mined" because it is simple and sounds "musical".
John, how it sounds to an English speaker?. For sure your proposal: "mined by collector" is cleaner and more correct but, as I commented before, my feeling is that people tends to use the easiest.

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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 08:38    Post subject: self-collected  

Self-collected - has its limitations to me because when I purchase something from a dealer I am collecting nonetheless
Collector-mined - as Carles points out, not everything we find comes out of mines. Also, in its most literal sense, it suggests that a collector - but not necessarily the person who owns the piece - did the mining

How about...?

Self-extracted or source-extracted (or even locally-extracted) - implies that one took it from the earth, either by digging or by mining or any other appropriate method of field collecting, at the source/locality where it resided

...my two cents...
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 10:27    Post subject: re: self collected  

Hello everyone,
You have a most interesting topic going here. Let me weigh in with how I have come to deal with the matter. To begin, a mineral's history (ie: how one acquires a mineral for one's collection) is an important aspect of a mineral's lable. On the back of the mineral lable and again in my mineral catolog this entry is given one of three responses. If I buy the mineral, say on Ebay, I make the entry: "purchased" followed with the entry of from whom the mineral was acquired. If I recieve the mineral in a trade, the entry recorded is "trade" followed by from whom. The third possible entry (which ties in with the current discussion) is the designation: "field collected". This term means that I went outside somewhere and physically obtained the mineral from the ground and brought it home to my collection without any other intermediate person/s being involved in the process. The term derives from my work as a geologist. When someone comes in and asks for me, That person is told that I am either "in" my office or that I am "away in the field" meaning that I am out of the office working on an assignment. I have adopted this term for my collection to indicate which specimens are self collected.

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chris
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 10:40    Post subject:  

Hello,

My own little stone : I do as Sundog.
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PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 13:55    Post subject: self collected  

We too much discuss about the verb to use, but the real point of all the differences is the "self" not the used verb (collected, dug, mined...). Then, simply change "self" by another, better indicate, word, as (for example) "personally".

The result: "personally collected" or "personally collected by ......."
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PostPosted: Jul 18, 2007 05:03    Post subject: Self collected  

Bingo, I think Carles has got it! I like "personally collected" best of all, so far.

Up to that point I was leaning toward "self-mined" and I have no problem with the word mined because mining can take many forms and does not necessarily involve tunnelling into rocks (as in placer mining, for example).

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MARION Claude




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PostPosted: Jul 18, 2007 06:20    Post subject: Self-collected  

Sorry for my bad English... But "to collect"do not mean that you dug, mined, gathered the mineral from the rock. You may get the mineral from a dealer and you personaly collected him.
Perhaps personaly mined?
Claude MARION
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PostPosted: Jul 18, 2007 08:32    Post subject:  

Two things need to be emphasized - 1) that it was not acquired from a store and 2) that the collector expended energy to acquire it.

"field-collected" is the least ambiguous within one's own catalog, but as a descriptor to others, perhaps "personally field-collected" would be a better fit?
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