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20 Aug-21:19:43 Re: is this topaz? please identify (Alex D.)
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20 Aug-14:06:58 Re: new generation for picture - ploum (Ploum)
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The New Generation
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Apr 01, 2008 15:47    Post subject: The New Generation  

Following the very interesting topic "Right labels":

http://www.fabreminerals.com/forum/Message-Board/viewtopic.php?t=83

a new topic came to my mind: the new generation of collectors.

Among the most active participants in the "Right labels" discussion are Tracy and Gail. Both are women, both are relatively new to this hobby, both are enthusiastic, and both enjoy researching and learning more and more about minerals. For me they represent a kind of new wave in mineralogy, in part created from the apparition of web pages devoted to mineralogy.
In my opinion, this new wave is transforming the traditional concept of "old time" collectors, recruiting fresh blood and new energy.

I'm becoming a little bit "old" in this business. I have seen a lot of things, some wonderful, some better to forget, but this new generation generates in my mind a lot of thoughts. It makes me very happy for the new arrivals to our passion, but at same time concerns me a little bit that all this energy could be dispersed if we as veterans don't help them get the kind of minerals, explanations, prices and answers that they look for.

Is a fascinating topic for me, what do other members of this forum think about it? Better to leave things alone and we will see what happens? The "veterans" should we do something to help this new generation to grow and stay? If yes, what could we do?

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PostPosted: Apr 01, 2008 17:16    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Jordi wrote: In my opinion, this new wave is transforming the traditional concept of "old time" collectors, recruiting fresh blood and new energy. <<<

I , like Gail & Tracy am new to the field of minerals and a woman...I come to minerals as an off shoot of years of rock hounding, gem collecting and jewelry making!

The enthusiasm is contagious - but without the solid info that the "old timers" (Jordi's term - not mine LOL!) provide - the energy is wasted.

I have found that most people are receptive to questions and make time to talk with someone they can see is genuine...and let me say thanks to the many folks who have spent time talking to me!

Robyn Hawk
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PostPosted: Apr 01, 2008 19:58    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Robyn's experience matches my own. To be sure, there is no substitute for direct conversation and "face time" with veteran collectors. But I've gotten many recommendations and bits of guidance from fellow collectors - including book suggestions, copies of articles to read, and the individual's personal opinions. I've even received a couple of "thank you's" for asking as many questions as I do. People who love minerals are happy to share their love with anyone who is eager to receive it.

It is the Internet Age, and for good or bad person-to-person meetings are gradually being replaced by computer exchanges. I submit that veterans who are willing to reach out to us beginners in writing will find no shortage of "newbies" as their audience. It is, at least in part, a matter of adjusting style.

I also must acknowledge Jordi's Forum as being an excellent energy-sharing and mentoring tool. I am already reaping great benefits from reading the postings and learning from you all - not to mention I am enjoying the lively discussions!

And good email friendships will eventually progress to meetings and deeper conversation...

My parting two cents: this is why I keep copies of everything I read. By doing this, over time I'm getting better at learning where the best information sources are, and whose opinions to trust above others.


More trouble-making over the weekend ;-)
(and welcome Robyn!)

- Tracy

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Carles Curto
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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 02:15    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

All of most significant collectors I know, independently of their age, are usually renewing their information and points of view and they are (we are) not less enthusiastic that the “new wave”. In my experience the really good collector always read and learn (it is a substantial part of seriously collect, I think), but the supports and the amount of information had been varied a lot.
I’m agree that there is an important lack (or a bridge if you prefer) on mineral collecting (at least in Spain, but probably all over the world) between “old white elephants” and new “serious” collectors. Is Internet the first motor of the present situation? Probably yes, but also the active magazines (classic and new), DVDs and books that involve and reflect the work of a lot of the mentioned “oldies”, at the same time that some new ones, that popularizes new and old minerals, new and old localities.
Not so long time ago the relation seller-collector was more personal and, at the same time, the information was more scarce and local. Actually, all is evidently more universalized. It is a chain: more information - more lectors - more collectors – more information – etc. It is easier (and nice) to be informed.
Another think you underline is the apparition of women on mineral collecting (but with a special memory of some celebrate classic, Margaret Anderson, i.e.). Well, I celebrate this fact as a direct and natural consequence of the paper of women in our society. So, welcome Tracy and Gail (as standard bearers of all mineralogist women).
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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 04:28    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Some time ago Jordi wrote something about internet mineral sales "democratizing" the business and I certainly agree with that. The internet is also democratizing in the sense that new collectors (and old ones, as well) can now share their questions, concerns and experiences with a huge audience. In my youth, this was virtually impossible for most collectors. I had access to a small number of local collectors, a handful of books, and that was pretty much it. Today the young and/or new collectors can contact major dealers directly, like Jordi and Les. This is a monumental change!
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Tracy




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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 08:31    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Carles' comments reminded me of something I meant to ask yesterday - in the past, was mineral collecting so heavily dominated by men that the "emergence" of female collectors represents a new trend?
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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 09:00    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Tracy, there have been women in the hobby for many years, but there are so few that it is noticeable. It is often that the woman in a relationship with a mineral collecting man is treated as a supporter, not a collector. I get this often, but now that I am quite outspoken it has diminished. People KNOW that I collect minerals and study them to no end.
Jim and I had a wonderful dinner party last year. Many collecting folks came and brought spouses. I cooked a wonderful dinner, got out of the kitchen and joined in on the mineral talk. I took people for "tours" of our various cabinets. Jim had groups of people with him at different cabinets, it was all quite fun.
I started to get thank you notes that week. One very sweet woman wrote to us and said that "Gail's cooking was fantastic and Jim's collection was amazing! "
I just about died!
Jim spends a lot of time mentioning it is OUR collection when we show people around, but the mind set is still there.
Being new I figure it will take time for everyone to see that we both "talk the talk, and walk the walk. "
I was asked to be the guest speaker at the Westward Look this past February in Tucson, I suggested that I make it into a panel of women, not just me. We had a great turnout and many women were inspired to continue along the path of mineral collecting when the six of us talked minerals, poked a little fun at ourselves, talked about raising children and trying to collect, etc.
Now I am a guest lecturer on the Friday night of the Springfield show this year. I am so pro women in mineral collecting, and this doesn't mean I am anti-man by any means. I think there is a strong place for more women in what was once considered a male dominated hobby/business. The support from men has been so encouraging and inspiring.
Mindat has given me the modertor duties over a Women's forum and it is growing in leaps and bounds. There is no bashing of men, there is only support about meeting other women and traveling to shows together. Working on babysitting for women who wish to attend shows, support groups for women who are fearful of asking what others might consider "dumb" questions. The forum is filling with women who are curators, old time collectors, novice collectors and wives of men who collect.
We are planning museum visits, self collecting get togethers and home stays for women who haven't much money to spend on hotels.
Many of these museum visits will be open invitations to men as well.

I will be getting 20% of the proceeds from the sales of the DVD from the Tucson WL talk to invest in programs that will help lure women into this fascinating and wonderful rocks and mineral world.

I started collecting less than three years ago, sure...but I have done the research of someone who has been in the hobby for 10 years or more.
My husband and I are both serious about our minerals, we research together, travel and self collect and visit museums together. He is behind me on the women's group concept. He saw me do this in the world of bicycling, which now boasts 57% of bicycle sales to women. ( I am a strong advocate of bicycling and health issues. )
He knows I take this stuff seriously.

And what a great time to join the mineral world! So many wonderful people and so many great museums, shows and clubs!

Sorry to be so long winded, two cups of potent tea this morning!

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Les Presmyk




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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 09:07    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Since I am now probably considered part of the "old guard" (collecting since about 10 years old and that is now 46 years ago) I would like to add a few comments. There have always been a number of women involved in our hobby, maybe not as a majority but certainly a very strong minority. In fact, if it weren't for women like Marcella Watson, who herded a group of kids through her 4-H Club devoted to minerals (Wayne Thompson and me, among others) and then to the Mineralogical Society of Arizona, Sarah Foster, Doris Benham, Milly Schupp, and Jean Hamel, a long-time California mineral dealer, I don't know if I would be typing this today. Contemporary female collectors include my wife, Paula (who was the first individual woman to win the McDole or Desautels Award), Kerith Graeber (the 2nd woman to win either of those trophies), Dawn Minette and now Gail Spann. I would submit that woman have always had a strong presence in our hobby, at least in my life.

Throughout my collecting career I have had collectors and dealers who were willing to reach out and help guide and educate and I see that happening today. The shows have always been the major outlet for news and relationship building and I hope that will continue. Ours is a hobby that require verbal and physical interactions and I see the internet as helping to promote that rather than taking from it. Most of us enjoy showing off our latest purchase to friends.

I appreciate John's acknowledgement about collectors contacting Jordi or me about the hobby. Every collector and dealer needs to be an ambassador for our hobby. I see dealers like Rob Lavinsky carrying on this tradition. I am pleased to know there are folks like him who understand how important it is to encourage new collectors, whether they are kids (he is offering significant cash awards for all of the junior exhibitors at the Tucson Show) or adults who have discovered minerals in their 30's, 40's or even 50's.

I do know dealers who bemoan the school kids who attend the Denver and Tucson Shows. I am not sure where they think new collectors are going to come from but I will let them figure that out. However, I applaud those dealers who put out $1 specimens, grab bags, crack geodes, or have other items that these children can buy. I wish every dealer could experience the joy of having a young mother come up and buy a geode for her child with the explanation that her parents did the same thing for her at the Tucson Show and now wants her child to experience that same joy of discovery.
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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 09:23    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Darn Les, you brought a tear to my eye! Well said!
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 10:00    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Just two short comments:

It seems to me that in US the position of women on mineral hobby is much more strong than in Europe where, as far as I know, don't exist too much women collectors (except the main exceptions of Dr. Erica Pohl and Madame Lydie Touret from Ecole des Mines de Paris).

Second comment is that as an Internet's seller I have a list of my customers, and believe me, there are a lot of women. I don't see the same average of women on mineral shows at all.
Maybe her interest for the mineralogy is always here but for some reason (maybe the mind set mentioned for Gail) we don't see they on shows and yes via Internet?.

Jordi
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PostPosted: Apr 02, 2008 10:03    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Thanks Les and Gail for your well-written commentaries. To stay on point with this topic (itt is a pet peeve of mine when the discussion strays very far from its original theme, though I accept it is a part of normal dialogue)....

Gail, being both on the speaker circuit and as a Forum moderator, can you share your experiences about passing the torch to "Internet scholars" versus face-to-face interactions, and keeping the energy from dissipating (as Jordi put it)? I am curious to know the pros and cons of each and/or your overall point of view.
Thanks

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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 01:17    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Unfortunately, in Spain, and also in all Europe I believe, mineral collection seems restricted to men
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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 02:20    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Hello everybody

I agree with those who says that there is mostly men dominate the collecting field. I am not so sure that there is so much to do about it. Both men and girls have their oppetunities to take their hobbies further, but my experience is that mostly men do that.Here in Norway we have as you have a lot of mineralogical clubs all over the country. In my club there is a lot of girls collecting and having fun on trips we have. But it seems that those girls stay on the begginers level and stays there all the time. The main thing is to have fun with minerals (and thats for sure importent) in the way of nice colour and forms. When it comes to crystal systems, valuable specimens and so on they drop out. It is not intersting for them. They also value the social aspect in a different way than the guys.

My local club use the local newspaper, we use internet to try to catch up new menbers of both male and female. We got mostly men.

There is such a great amount of other things to do today. But to catch up new members it is maybe not enough to bake a cake and have warm coffee on the table when a new member is haveing her/his first visit to a mineral club.
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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 04:29    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

For those who haven't seen it or have forgotten about it, I commend Michael Cooper's fine article "The Devonshire Mineral Collection at Chatsworth House: An 18th-century survivor and its restoration" in Mineralogical Record, v. 36, no. 3, 2005. This is about the mineral collection "of one of English Society's most remarkable woman(sic)", Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire. There are also several references to her in Heather Ewing's fine new book "The Lost World of James Smithson" (2007).

Clearly one of the first or earliest female mineral collectors of note.

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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 05:38    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Good days, dont be if I belong to the new generation to whom this post refers, I prefer that they me classify others. I am not also a woman who has to fight for a position of equality for requirements of genre, Im a man, a seeker, an eternal apprentice.
I can speak on the void incident of the university feminine european studies as for mines at the moment of assessing an increase of the feminine collections, that is to say, great they are the women who approach the mineralogy across the study of other sciences (geology, geography ...) during¨her university stage and very few ones are the women who after this approximation begin to elaborate her own collections (in the men so much per cent is higher). The feminine collections that I know are more focused on the gems and on the crystalline therapies that to systematic or scientific. They collect the aesthetics and we the pragmatics. The women who do not collect do not understand that we fill either the house of cupboards full of stones, or the garage of boxes and tools, or the library of books, magazines and publications on the topic, not that we consume our savings in one more stone, to bring one more cupboard, where to be able to put furthermore.
To which of us they us have not received in house with bad eyes when we have come cutlery of mud, soaking water, damaged men and with two bags full of stones. As my wife says:
" Since I do not go to the mountain, the mountain comes to my house "
To the majority of the women that I know, the collections of minerals in house, it look like to them a hindrance and a problem added of cleanliness and expenses. It yes, whenever someone of her children needs a mineral that to lead to class or a work of mineral studies they it come to look and praise the marvellous collection that you have in house, even if you allow it they you place to the most revolutionary of her children in order that you take it to yourself every sunday beyond far possibly:
" Lead it to passing the day in the mountain with you, who looks for minerals and learns, but that me does not bring bags of stones to house "

Different ways of thinking, of acting and of collecting. The men in pure and hard condition are charmed with the nature, scare the majority of women, be for ignorance or for some type of atavistic instinct.
Always it is a pleasure mineralogical women find, especially because you are very small. My better desires.
Regards
Pablo

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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 05:57    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

And, in an update few time ago, Jordi showed a Folch's English Olivenite that previously was in Sir Arthur Russell collection but that it was previously in Lady Elizabeth Anne Coxe Hippisley collection.
And I remember Anne Voileau, from France, who wrote some mineralogical articles in Le Monde et les Minéraux.
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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 06:35    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Anne Voileau not only wrote some articles for Le Monde et les Mineraux, she was the publisher of that journal throughout its entire run. She had, and possible still has, a very fine miniature (size of specimen designation) collection of minerals.

And, among the contemporary female collectors of note in my country, the name of Carolyn Manchester should be added.

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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 07:25    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Pablo,
There are ways for women to see minerals without being concerned about the "mess" and clutter. Women should know they can control how things can be displayed if they work with their husbands and both agree on a system. In our case, we both love the minerals and WANT to live amongst them. This is what you get to enjoy while eating in our kitchen...



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While enjoying a glass of wine, you can sit at the counter and chat while having minerals just to your right...
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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 07:27    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Or....


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at the table where you can see two of the four cabinets in the dining/kitchen area as well as some in the living room.
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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2008 07:33    Post subject: Re: The New Generation  

Then we can sit in the living room and enjoy minerals even more! The point is that women can add minerals into the decor, or not, if that is their preference. I chose to design and work it all in as we entertain once or twice a week, mostly mineral people.

I think once women see more and more passion amongst other women in this field that the reservations they have might be lifted. When they come to our house they are delighted that minerals, are indeed, worthy of display.



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